National Guardsman Fights 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

Coming up, young, underemployed, unmarried - we're familiar with the troubles of teen moms, but what about the challenges facing teen dads. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. It's our weekly look into The Washington Post magazine. But first, the military's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. It says in essence that gays and lesbians can serve as long as they do not disclose their sexual orientation. The policy dates back to 1993, and the Clinton administration and gay civil rights advocates have been pushing for its abolition ever since.

They say it forces qualified and committed service members out of uniform for no good reason, and might even encourage a climate of harassment. Many gay service members who are determined to challenge the policy have paid a price. Army National Guard Lieutenant Dan Choi, a graduate of West Point and a combat veteran from Iraq is the latest. In March, he publicly disclosed that he is gay. And last week, a review panel recommended that he be discharged from service. Lieutenant Choi joins me now from our bureau in New York. Welcome, thank you for joining us.

Lieutenant DAN CHOI (U.S. Army combat veteran): Thanks for having me, Michel.

MARTIN: Why did you decide to join the military to begin with?

Lt. CHOI: Well, just like any soldier, you want to serve something that's greater than yourself. And I had always been impressed by my dad who was in the Korean Army and he's an immigrant to America. And he always told to me, if you don't serve something greater than yourself, particularly in the military, then at least in Korea you're not considered a man.

MARTIN: And you went to West Point.

Lt. CHOI: Yes, at West Point they taught us the values of duty, honor, country. We had an honor code that said very clearly, a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do. And one of the things that attracted me to West Point, I believe that the honor code is what makes West Point, West Point.

MARTIN: Can I ask you though at the time that you - you entered West Point with the intention of serving and the policy, The Don't, Ask Don't Tell policy…

Lt. CHOI: Hmm-Umm.

MARTIN: …was in place…

Lt. CHOI: Sure.

MARTIN: …at the time that you began your military career. Did you know that you were gay?

Lt. CHOI: Sure. I've known since I was in fourth grade. My dad is a Southern Baptist minister. He has a church in Orange County, California, and I would always go to the retreats and revival services and they would say, you have a sin. So I believed that being gay, you know, that was a choice, and it was a sin. And so I prayed to Jesus, and I said Jesus, let me wake up tomorrow and be straight, please. And it just never happened, you know, my prayers were never answered.

And when I went to West Point, I never came to terms with the ideas of, you know, am I going to get into a relationship? Am I going to understand these things that everybody talks about like love? And I never really understood that until a year-and-a-half ago when I started my first relationship. Then it became important to understand and to come to terms, and to tell.

MARTIN: And here's where you did tell. Let's play a clip of when you appeared on MSNBC's "Rachel Maddow Show."

(Soundbite of clip of television show, "The Rachel Maddow Show")

Lt. CHOI: I'm an infantry platoon leader in the New York National Army Guard and by saying three words to you today, I am gay. Those three words are a violation of Title 10 of the U.S. Code.

MARTIN: And I do want to point out that you have already served in Iraq. You are a veteran of active duty of the war in Iraq, and we appreciate your service. I do want to say that. What made you come to that point when you decided you wanted to publicly declare your orientation and publicly challenge the law?

Lt. CHOI: When I returned from Iraq in late 2007, I finally started my first love relationship. And I understood for the first time what everybody talks about in movies, and in books, and in poetry, when they talk about love and commitment, sacrifice and maturity, growth. And those things that I've finally realized. This makes me a better person. It makes me a better citizen. It makes me a better Christian, it makes me a better soldier.

And I wanted to tell my friends that who were in Iraq with me. And I just couldn't. I had to say, I have this relationship. I have a girlfriend and her name is Martha. And then they'd say, we told you we want to meet with Martha, you know, you keep talking about her and, you know, we want you to meet our wives, and our girlfriends. And I said well, Martha just doesn't like army people.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Lt. CHOI: Which was totally untrue. So how disrespectful not only to Mathew(ph) my boyfriend, but also was disrespectful to the people in my unit. After I did get off of active duty because I had to come to the decision, you know, am I going to keep lying about this every single day or am I going to get out of the army and at least get off of active duty and continue in this relationship?

So I decided in May 2008, I had enough of lying, I had enough of this deception and I joined the National Guard with the idea that, well, I'll only have to go into work once a month. And so I only have to lie once a month. And realizing later on, you know, integrity, and honor, and telling the truth, those are 24-hour operations. Those are seven days a week operations. You can't just choose when you tell the truth.

Especially about something so important that makes you a whole person. And my friends, when I finally did tell them about Mathew not Martha, they said, why did you wait so long? We wouldn't have cared? We would have kept it a secret, you know, but I was so tormented and terrorized by the threat of, you know, getting found out under Don't Ask, Don't Tell that I kept it secret. And so it's very damaging. After a few months more I came out to my parents.

MARTIN: How are they doing? How are they?

Lt. CHOI: Well, they're very conservative and the house was a very homophobic house. And they're condemning. They don't think that it's a natural thing and they say that it's against God, and it's against The Bible, it's against Christianity. And initially they said, well, it's a choice, so just don't choose. And just go and have sex with all these women and then that'll cure you.

MARTIN: If you're just joining us, this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News and I'm speaking with Lieutenant Dan Choi. He's challenging the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy on gays in the military. He's a graduate of West Point. He has been serving in the New York National Guard and he has disclosed publicly that he is gay. And a military review panel just recommended last week that he be separated from the service because of this disclosure.

A bit of, I don't know, is it irony there that the military review panel issued this recommendation just a day or so after President Obama welcomed a group of gay and lesbian leaders to the White House commemorating the Stonewall Rebellion or riot, which is believed to be the event in 1969 that kind of launched the National Gay Civil Rights Movement. And the president said that he does support civil rights for gays but that - well, in essence, he said it takes time. And I'm just - I'm interested to know how you responded to his comments?

Lt. CHOI: I don't see it as an issue of gay rights. I don't even see it as an issue of civil rights. I look at some of the things that we are advocating for, the rights to raise a family, and to serve in the military. These things are not rights, they are responsibilities in my book. And when you step up to serve your country, you're essentially answering the call to duty. One of the interesting things that he said was that you should not judge me based on what I say but what I do.

Wait and see what I do and judge me. And on, you know, Tuesday of last week I was being judged and essentially being fired solely based on my statements, not considering the things that I actually did, not considering the accomplishments or the contributions that I made to the military, only my statements of truth.

MARTIN: What about those who argue that the reason that the ban exists is that having persons of the same sex who live in close quarters, that this interferes with good order and discipline?

Lt. CHOI: Men and women of character fill the ranks of the military. They're not children. They're not kids - say, oh my God, they're so uncomfortable. We've to protect them. They're just - they're not going to be able to deal with it. That's insulting to them. They go overseas and they fight terror. And they're getting blown up and shot at. And we go through these things together. You don't care what's - the person on your right and left, what their sexual orientation is. You work together and that diversity actually helps to build a unit. People learn more about each other.

MARTIN: And on the other side of it, and we're down to our last couple of minutes, you also learned Arabic, you work…

Lt. CHOI: That's right.

MARTIN: ���as a translator. And I'm wondering if any of your commanding officers on the other side of it expressed frustration at the fact that the army -should you be separated from the service, will be losing another person with a valued - a highly valued skill.

Lt. CHOI: Well, last week, we presented at the board over 260,000 letters of support. And part of my testimony - a part of my personal statement to the board, I recited the most famous poem in Arabic. I said (Arabic spoken). That's a poem by Mutanabbi. It's the most famous poet in all of Iraqi history. And the translation of course, I had to give it to them because there was nobody that was available to translate, saying that the horses and the night and the sand, they know me. The pen and the paper, the sword and the spear, they know me. I'm the one who makes a blind to read my prose. I'm the one who makes the deaf to hear my poetry.

And just the idea of - you know, that kind of message to the Iraqi people, the bridging of that cultural gap, to hear not only an American soldier saying that and respect their culture and their great civilization, but I'm also Asian. So, a lot of times they would say, how are you pronouncing (unintelligible)?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Lt. CHOI: How can you do this? So that shock. And it just allows people to be disarmed to the point where they say, well, they're here to respect us, regardless of some of the other barriers that we have. And I hope that our military as well as our government can realize those barriers, number one, you know, in our military do not exist. People don't care.

MARTIN: Lieutenant, finally - last week I had the opportunity to visit with two men who were veterans of the Stonewall riots or rebellion…

Lt. CHOI: Hmm, hmm.

MARTIN: …and I asked them if they thought that they would see the equality, the inclusion, the acceptance that they seek in their lifetimes. I would like to ask you that question.

Lt. CHOI: Well, regardless of whether we see it in our lifetime, we have an obligation. A lot of people have asked, well, why did you come out of the closet? I didn't do it for my own personal liberation or for my own sake, so that I could see something myself. When you come out of the closet, you do it so that the other guy, so that somebody else down the line can realize, wow, I'm not alone. I do not have to feel ashamed. I do not have to commit suicide. I do not have to be depressed because there's somebody else out there. And as long as that's the case, as long as there's people that need to hear that message, I will tell.

MARTIN: Lieutenant Dan Choi. He's currently serving in the New York National Guard. He's challenging the Pentagon's policy on Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And he's with us from our New York bureau. Lieutenant, thank you so much for joining us.

Lt. CHOI: Thanks, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.