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Karzai Must Kick Out 'Cronies' To Succeed, Kerry Says

Published November 6, 2009 7:14 AM

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When the main challenger to Afghan President Hamid Karzai dropped out of a planned runoff, it did more than end two months of election disputes. Sen. John Kerry says it also gave Karzai a chance to prove his legitimacy — and to become a stronger ally to America.

Kerry traveled to Afghanistan in October to persuade Karzai to hold the runoff election against Abdullah Abdullah — a man he claimed to have defeated.

Abdullah's withdrawal from the controversial election presents an opening for Karzai, Kerry says.

"I think President Karzai needs to seize this opportunity in a very clear and tangible way" to institute reforms and improve Afghanistan's government, Kerry tells NPR's Renee Montagne.

Cleaning Up The Afghan Government

Karzai needs to shake up his ministers and governors, Kerry says, emphasizing the need to get rid of "cronies" who were added during the election season.

Karzai must also "reach out to the provinces to help develop the partners we need at a local level," says Kerry, who is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Those moves not only would help repair Karzai's relationship with the United States, Kerry says; they also are necessary for Karzai "to really establish his own credibility as a national leader."

Citing rumors of a "removal list" of competent governors who might be slated for replacement, Kerry says, "People just want to make certain that the folks who are really trying to work to get the job done are going to stay in place."

One example, Kerry says, is Gov. Gulab Mangal of Helmand province, where U.S. Marines are currently fighting insurgent forces.

Saying there have been rumors that Mangal might be replaced, Kerry says, "I think that'd be an enormous mistake and a very bad signal."

Trouble From The Family?

A potential source of major trouble for Karzai is his younger half-brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai, who has been described as a drug kingpin and who is generally thought to be profiting from shady deals in Kandahar.

Many people tell stories about Wali Karzai's supposed mafia-like grip on Kandahar, and virtually everyone in Afghanistan believes the tales. Wali Karzai is also believed to have worked for the CIA, as reported last month by The New York Times.

"If people have evidence, we need to see the evidence," Kerry says, adding that the matter is important enough to be part of the conversation of America's future role in Afghanistan.

Under the Bush administration, the United States said it had no choice but to rely on people known as warlords in Afghanistan, Kerry says — they were the only ones who had enough power to fight the Taliban.

Challenged to answer whether the Obama administration operates under the same premise, Kerry says, "I think it applies to anybody working in a place as complicated as Afghanistan — that you have to make some tough decisions. Nothing is pure or easy on its face."

The challenge, Kerry says, is to remember that few approaches will work in Afghanistan the way they might in the United States.

"Occasionally, you're going to have to deal with people who don't necessarily meet the test over here," he says.

'Good' Warlords, 'Bad' Warlords

Kerry says the end goal for the United States in working with warlords is to provide enough stability to keep Afghanistan from being a sanctuary for al-Qaida — and also to marginalize the Taliban.

"Now this may sound totally comical to you," Kerry says, "but there are, quote, good warlords and bad warlords, end of quote."

Kerry gave a speech last week in which he said America would not be able to transform Afghanistan into a "flawless democracy."

Asked during the interview to describe an Afghan government that would be acceptable, Kerry says it's one that tries to limit corruption, has a plan for economic and social progress and provides security for its population.

But, he says, "It has to do it at an Afghan pace, not at some artificially constructed Western pace."

As an example, Kerry says, if the United States were to engage in comprehensive nation-building in Afghanistan, it would very likely take the country 30 years to reach the level of neighboring Pakistan.

For now, Kerry says, the success of America's goals in Afghanistan hinges on Karzai's ability to be a reliable strategic partner running a legitimate government.

"It's in Afghanistan's interest, it's in our troops' interest, in our national interest, that we make this succeed," Kerry says.

Asked whether that means President Obama should send more soldiers to Afghanistan, Kerry acknowledges that he would support raising troop levels in Afghanistan. But "the decision is not just one about number of troops," he says; the U.S. mission is about strategy and security — and weakening al-Qaida and the Taliban.

He has no doubt about the U.S. military's ability to do its part, Kerry says; instead, his doubts are in the civic sphere: governance, development and civilian structure.

"If all we do is have a military component to this," Kerry says, "we will fail."

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STEVE INSKEEP, host:

We're going to talk next about where Afghanistan goes from here. This past week, things began moving very quickly in Afghanistan. President Hamid Karzai's challenger dropped out of a planned presidential runoff. That runoff was cancelled, and Karzai was declared the victor.

RENEE MONTAGNE, host:

Massachusetts Senator John Kerry was in Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago when it appeared the political crises there might spin out of control. He met with key figures - and especially Karzai - several times, and is now widely credited with helping to break a deadlock. Senator Kerry sat down with us for a conversation on Afghanistan and on Hamid Karzai, who he said must get serious now about cleaning up corruption.

Senator Kerry, Good morning.

Senator JOHN KERRY (Democrat, Massachusetts; Chairman of Senate Foreign Relations Committee): Good morning to you.

MONTAGNE: Now that the U.S. and the West know who their partner is in Kabul, what is the very first thing you think should be done, specifically?

Sen. KERRY: Well, there are a number of things that have to happen. Number one, he's got to change some ministers, and number two, some governors. He's got some terrific ministers, mind you. I don't want to - it's not as if this has to be some sort of wholesale sweep. In addition to that, he's really got to refrain from removing certain good governors today and replacing them with some of the cronies and others that were adopted during the course of the election season.

MONTAGNE: Well, the governors are, of course, appointed by the president in Afghanistan. When you suggest that he's got to refrain from getting rid of, if you will, the good ones, is that something that you're concerned that he might do?

Sen. KERRY: There has been some concern. I think it would be a very, very bad sign if certain individuals - to give you an example, there's a terrific governor down in Helmand, Governor Mangal. There have been some rumors about the potential of his removal. I think that would be an enormous mistake and a very bad signal.

MONTAGNE: Well, of course, especially in Helmand, because that is where at the moment thousands of Marines are fighting, and that's where the center of the current NATO fight is.

Sen. KERRY: That's absolutely correct.

MONTAGNE: You know, it interesting, you said, there are some good people, good ministers, because we don't hear about that so often. But what we do hear about are, in fact, the bad ministers. For years, people in Afghanistan have spoken of President Karzai's younger half brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai. He's spoken of widely as a drug kingpin. Now this may not be true, but everyone seems to believe it, and there has not been, it seems, a serious effort to investigate someone that close to a leader that the U.S. is supporting.

Sen. KERRY: Well, this is something that we all need to get to the bottom of. In fact, I am having a meeting in short order with different interested parties with respect to that issue. I think we have to look at that with a very tough eye, if you will, in order to ascertain what is possible here in terms of securing Kandahar and that particular region, which is essential in any effort to marginalize the Taliban.

MONTAGNE: Well, right. Of course, this has always been the issue with Afghanistan. If the U.S. supports powerful people that the local people look on as thugs, that makes the U.S. look bad. Now, the Bush administration often did say that it had no choice but to rely on people who had - were known as warlords - because they were the people who had the power and helped drive out the Taliban. Does that apply to this administration?

Sen. KERRY: I think it applies to anybody working in a place as complicated as Afghanistan, that you have to make some tough decisions. It just may be necessary in order to accomplish what we need to, which is keeping al-Qaida from using it as a sanctuary and sort of marginalizing the Taliban, who are somewhat allied with al-Qaida. That's the mission, and we shouldn't lose track of that.

So there will be some warlords who are going to play a role, one way or another. Now this may sound totally comical to you, but there are quote, �good warlords and bad warlords,� end of quotes. And you have to kind of really draw some lines and then measure what you're left with against what you're trying to accomplish, and so - what our goal is.

MONTAGNE: I'm speaking to Senator John Kerry, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, you spent several days and several dinners helping to get President Hamid Karzai to accept a constitutionally mandated runoff. It didn't happen, as it turns out. But during walks, I gather, in the garden of the presidential palace, did you share with him a sense of disappointment and possible unfairness?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Sen. KERRY: We, you know, we just had a very frank, honest conversation. We talked about family, about history, about culture, about Afghanistan, about his own journey to the presidency, the king who came back to live in the palace. He actually showed me through the old palace. You know, we got to know each other and spend a lot of time with each other, and I think have a certain respect for the effort that we were engaged in.

And in the course of that, sure, I talked about sometimes you've got to make a tough decision about conceding in a race where you don't think you should have to, or we talked a lot about the imperfection of elections in many different parts of the world.

MONTAGNE: And did you come away thinking that Hamid Karzai is a reliable partner for the U.S. and a partner that can make the hard choices?

Sen. KERRY: I think Hamid Karzai can be a reliable partner, providing he makes those changes that I talked about. And as all of us have said - and I think the president said this very clearly the other day, very appropriately - you know, it's not going to be words that are going to be sufficient. It's going to take actions. And the test for that will be every day. Does he make the moves necessary to deliver better governance, a clarity of steps he's going to take, and actually take them? That's the test.

MONTAGNE: Do you think he'll pass the test?

Sen. KERRY: I hope so. It's in all of our interests that he does, that we make this succeed. Because if it does, then we can get our troops home in a shorter span of time with less conflict and with greater guarantees of stability and long-term success.

MONTAGNE: So where does this leave us when it comes to the all-important question of sending more troops to Afghanistan?

Sen. KERRY: Well, the test - as I've said a number of times - the decision is not just one about numbers of troops. The governance, locally, the development ability, the civilian, you know, civil structure, all of those things have to come in underneath it. They don't have to be perfect right away. If all we do is have a military component to this, we will fail. Right now, there are serious doubts about some of the governance and development and civilian structure that has to come in underneath that military effort in order to ultimately succeed.

MONTAGNE: Thank you very much for joining us.

Sen. KERRY: Glad to be with you. Thank you.

MONTAGNE: Senator John Kerry is Chairman of the Senator Foreign Relations Committee.

INSKEEP: As we just heard, President Obama spoke of expecting deeds from Afghanistan's president. And today, another of Afghanistan's allies went a step further. Britain linked corruption with the levels of Western troops in the country.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown gave a speech. He said that the Afghan government risks losing the world's support. He said, quote, �I am not prepared to put the lives of British men and women in harm's way for a government that does not stand up against corruption.� That speech comes after the deaths of seven British soldiers in the past week. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.

Source: NPR

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