Sacha Baron Cohen And Larry Charles Talk 'Bruno'

TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Usually if Sacha Baron Cohen grants an interview, it's in character as Borat or Bruno. So we're really happy to be able to present our second interview with Sacha Baron Cohen as himself.

The occasion is today's DVD release of his latest movie, "Bruno," and it has lots of extras, including scenes that didn't make it into the film and a commentary soundtrack by Cohen and the director of "Bruno," Larry Charles, who is with us too. Charles also directed "Borat" and Bill Maher's film, "Religulous."

Like "Borat," Bruno is filmed as if it were a documentary. Bruno is an Austrian, gay fashion journalist who is incredibly shallow but doesn't know it. After he disrupts a fashion show and becomes persona non grata in the European fashion world, he moves to L.A., where he intends to do anything it takes to become a celebrity - anything - from making a sex tape to trying to negotiate peace in the Middle East.

Along the way, he meets a lot of homophones homophobes some of whom have guns. These are real people with real guns who don't know that Bruno is just a character created by Sacha Baron Cohen. We'll get to how scary that was later. Let's start with a scene from the beginning of the film.

(Soundbite of film, "Bruno")

Mr.�SACHA BARON COHEN (Actor): (As Bruno) What's up? I'm Bruno.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr.�COHEN: I live in Austria's coolest city, Vienna, no big deal, whatever.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr.�COHEN: I am just host of "Funky Type," the most important TV fashion show in any German-speaking country, apart from Germany.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr.�COHEN: "Funky Type" is uber-influential. In fact, Austrian fashionistas live their lives according to my in or out list. In: autism. Out: Chlamydia.

GROSS: Sacha Baron Cohen, Larry Charles, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love the film, and it's a pleasure to talk with you. Sacha, how did you create Bruno, and how did Bruno change for the movie?

Mr.�COHEN: Bruno was probably the first character that I developed. He came before Ali G and before Borat, and it was, I think it was 1996, and I knew that I wanted to do a character in a real setting, and it was coming up to London Fashion Week, and I'd been employed by a channel, a little cable channel in England called the Paramount Comedy Channel, to do, you know, little three-minute sections, and I wanted to do a character that would play in a real way in London Fashion Week, and so I just came up with a fashion reporter who was Austrian.

GROSS: And gay.

Mr.�COHEN: And gay. Well

GROSS: An important part of his character, yeah.

Mr.�COHEN: Well, at the beginning he wasn't out as gay, and I did one fashion show which was with this sort of Cockney designer who designed for all the sort of English mafioso. So he designed for the Kray twins, and he made all the suits for all the English mafia. And he was so macho that when I went there that day and started interviewing him, you know, the whole theme of the interview was: So tell me, why is your, why is you fashion so gay? And you know, he got increasingly angry. You know, I'm not gay. I'm telling you, I'm not gay. And I go, so tell me, you know, you and your husband, what, you just think up these designs last thing at night?

And he got incredibly angry, and basically in this fashion show, it was basically all the English mafia had turned up, and he had this short guy next to him, who I remember, after I asked him about the sixth time whether he was gay, grabbed me by my hair, pulled me down to his level and said I'm going to shoot you if you don't shut up. And basically one of the other guys pulled me aside and said this guys - he's the real deal and he's what's called a shooter, at which point I became very scared, and I actually hid in a cupboard until I managed to get out of there because they started looking for me in the fashion show.

So that was a little introduction into the reactions of tough men to being called gay. And I knew

GROSS: So did this make you think, oh, I'm really onto something? If he's ready to shoot me for this, this is a good bit.

Mr.�COHEN: Yeah, definitely, because I knew early on that and I didn't really have it with the other characters, where Borat was more lovable. You know, he could say the most vicious, anti-Semitic, homophobic, sexist things, and people would go, oh no, we don't say that. But with Bruno, they would get actively angry, and so I knew that it was exciting for me to perform and I knew it was entertaining to watch. Well, that's up for debate, I suppose.

But as a result of that, I then took Bruno to a fascist concert, a skinhead concert in London, and that was actually about a year after, and I'd already done a little bit of Ali G, and I was with all these kind of British neo-Nazis and sort of coming on to them, and you know, they have this tendency of taking off their shirts and, you know, jumping around topless and sort of rubbing up against each other, and it was very macho but essentially it was very homoerotic, and obviously Bruno was kind of you know, I had my shirt off and was jumping around amongst them, and it actually got a little bit scary because somebody recognized me, and word got around this fascist gathering that I was there taking the mick, you know, I was there to, you know, as a joke, and so it got it got a little bit hairy in there.

GROSS: You're amazing. You just are constantly putting yourself into positions of danger for your performances.

Mr.�COHEN: Well, I prefer not to. I prefer not to, but you know, there's a desire to do comedy that hasn't been done before. So you know, if it's - you know, a lot of sort of real, dangerous situations haven't been done with a comic character. So it adds another layer to the comedy, really.

GROSS: Larry Charles, during the course of filming "Bruno," did you ever say to Sacha Baron Cohen, I'm sorry, that's going too far, we're not going to do it?

Mr.�CHARLES: I dont think I've ever said that, actually. I defer to Sacha on these kind of issues. I mean, if he if we can create a situation, an environment, that he is safe enough to go out on these kind of limbs, that's what we want to do with these movies. We want to push through limits. We want to push the boundaries. We want to experiment and see how far we can go and how much we can juxtapose very, very serious, dire, dreaded situations with the humor and see if that works. So it's a constant experiment. But no, I never want to pull back. Other people are asking me to pull back, but

Mr.�COHEN: With that said, we do have, you know, there's when you make a film, there's other people who you need permission from - you know, the studio, lawyers, you know, production staff. You need your crew to join you, and for example, there was the final scene of the movie, which is a cage match, where Bruno, you know, starts making out with his love interest in a real cage match in Arkansas, we knew we wanted to do that, and the legal team and we have a big legal team who are, interestingly enough, based out in India, but are experts in constitutional law they said it's illegal for us to do it because we knew that the crowd would probably riot if they saw two grown men start kissing each other in a cage-fighting ring, and if you cross a state boundary and provoke a riot, then that is a federal law. In fact, that's what the Chicago Seven were sued for - were tried for, sorry.

So we had to, you know, we were told by the lawyers this is totally illegal, and then we were told by our security advisor and we interviewed a lot of different people in this that it's impossible to do that scene without, you know, and come out, you know, not in a wheelchair, essentially, at the very least.

So we're constantly trying to figure out ways of, you know, comically achieving the scene and also legally and practically achieving the scene.

GROSS: Let's talk about the cage fight, and this comes at the end of the film, and you, Sacha Baron Cohen, you have created a character for the cage fight called Straight Dave. First describe what you're wearing. Describe how you look for this.

Mr.�COHEN: Straight Dave, who basically in the movie, Bruno, who's this gay Austrian character, has a breakdown and reinvents himself as his own antithesis. Straight Dave is this uber-macho, uber-straight guy who is basically homophobic, and in this scene I'm wearing camouflage from head to toe, including a kind of camo cowboy hat.

GROSS: Okay, so let's begin with the announcer announcing your entrance onto the ring or the cage.

(Soundbite of film, "Bruno")

(Soundbite of cheering)

Unidentified Man #1: You guys ready to see a little ass-kicking tonight?

(Soundbite of cheering)

Unidentified Man #1: Make some noise, everybody. Put your hands together and make some noise. The host of the brand new TV show, Straight Dave, (unintelligible). Give it up for Straight Dave!

(Soundbite of cheering)

Unidentified Man #1: Straight Dave. Straight Dave.

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Are you ready for some man-slamming action?

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN (As Straight Dave): Who's ready for an old-fashioned (unintelligible)?

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Are you 100 percent hetero like me?

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Who out there is proud to be straight?

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Let me hear you say it: Straight pride.

Unidentified People: Straight pride!

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Straight pride.

Unidentified People: Straight pride!

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) I'm so straight that when I bought my house, the first thing I did was brick up the back door.

(Soundbite of cheering)

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) It's great to have an evening with straight people. It's great not to have any fags here.

Unidentified Man #2: You're a faggot.

Mr.�COHEN: (As Straight Dave) Who called me a faggot? Whoever called me a faggot, come up here and I'll beat your ass. Who called Straight Dave a faggot? Come up here.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: It's really such an amazing scene. The people in the audience seem really out for blood, you know? They really want to see you fight, and then the person you let in, who called you a faggot, is actually Bruno's boyfriend, who left Bruno earlier in the movie. So they start off fighting and then end up kissing and embracing and taking each other's clothes off, and the audience is going wild watching these homosexual affections. I mean, they can't handle it. They can't they're just in pain. They're screaming. They're throwing things at you, and what was it like for you?

Mr.�COHEN: It was pretty incredible. I mean, I would say, unfortunately, we had to do this two nights in a row because we did it the first night in a place called Texarkana in Arkansas, which is famous for one thing, and that's pulling an African-American man behind a truck until he passed away. So it was a pretty rough place with a rough crowd, and I started doing that scene that first night in Texarkana, and the crowd started booing, and I shouted as Straight Dave, I go: And if you other fags have want to have, you know, what to be beaten up -and this guy just ran at the cage and catapulted the cage, jumped into the cage, and he was basically an ultimate fighter and was ready to beat me up.

So suddenly I'm face to face with this professional fighter, not knowing what to do, and then people start throwing chairs in, and basically I had to sort of run for my life.

So we drove overnight to Little Rock in Arkansas and arranged another cage match that night, and that night we were ready to do it basically. It was we had a bit more success, which you see in the movie. But the moment, you know, the crowd loved me as Straight Dave. I was their hero. You know, they were totally behind me. I was giving out sort of cheap beers. I was saying, you know, everything that they wanted to say about gay people. And then the moment I kissed, you know, my love interest, who I'd been fighting and beating up, there was just absolute silence in the crowd, absolute shock, and then serious booing and then people throwing stuff and throwing eventually chairs, metal chairs that I was trying to avoid while being on the floor.

But it was an amazing experience as an actor because, because of the energy from 1,500 people in the crowd, and it was an energy of hatred - it actually pushes you as a performer further into the character, and you really, you know, you kind of believe the scene.

Obviously in the back of my mind I'm still going all the legal things that I have to make sure that we don't do, like, you know, there were certain things that the lawyers had said we could do. You know, you can lick a nipple but you can't cup a buttock, you know, in Arkansas. So that was all going through my mind as well, but it was invigorating, I mean terrifying as well, but you know, an amazing experience.

GROSS: My guests are Sacha Baron Cohen, the creator of the characters Ali G, Borat and Bruno; and Larry Charles, who directed Cohen's films "Borat" and "Bruno." Bruno was released today on DVD. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guests are Sacha Baron Cohen and Larry Charles, and Sacha Baron Cohen, of course, is the star of "Bruno" and "Borat," the creator; and also, Larry Charles directed both of those films.

Now, Larry Charles, as the director of the film, where were you during the cage match?

Mr.�CHARLES: I was right behind the curtain that you can't see with 11 monitors. We had 11 cameras. We shot it like a sporting event. So I was right there behind the curtain, and again, trying to communicate with the cameramen, with my AD. When the guy jumped over the thing, we had to sort of make a quick decision to get Sacha out of there.

The second night, there was also a lot of threats, and we were promised that the chairs wouldn't be able to be uncoupled and thrown into the ring, and the chairs started flying, but I knew it was only our second this was our second chance to do this scene and probably our last chance to do the scene.

I'm conscious of Sacha and Gustaf's safety, of course, but we were promised that nothing would happen beyond. So once the first chair came in, I thought, well, now the security guys are going to crack down, and so I thought we might be able to get to the end of the scene, and we did, fortunately.

GROSS: Who knew, in the auditorium or arena or wherever you were, who knew what you were doing?

Mr.�COHEN: There was one guy who knew, the guy who promoted the cage match.

Mr.�CHARLES: The audience was completely unprepared. We had our own security people who were sort of interspersed, and they were obviously conscious, and our crew was conscious, but the audience themselves were completely unprepared.

GROSS: Did the security people do anything that was effective?

Mr.�COHEN: No. I mean, the first night, you know, the security guys had, you know, they'd guaranteed me no one would be able to scale the fence, and somebody you know, they said it would take somebody three minutes, and it took somebody three seconds to jump over, so

Mr.�CHARLES: We're in a lot of situations where the security guys go, hey, look, there's nothing we could do about this. You know, we're in that situation a lot. It's like, oh, look, they have guns. Yeah, but we're 10 feet away. We can't get there in time. So we've had problems with security not being with the program sometimes.

Mr.�COHEN: I mean that's the problem with the security guard, it's more of a psychological thing, because if somebody pulls out a gun at you, the security guard has to be so close that it's kind of impossible for us to film like that. So it's more for psychological comfort to have somebody there.

Mr.�CHARLES: Even a quick punch, like in the hunter scene in "Bruno," Sacha was both threatened with guns and with physical violence, and you're in a situation where the security guys are behind the camera, Sacha's sitting next to the hostile hunter. If that guy decides to whip around and punch him, there's nothing a security guy can really do. So we have to accept the limits of our protection also. I mean, that's part of the assessment of the risk.

GROSS: Yeah, and the hunter scene, the hunter scene you're talking about, you know, Bruno is in a little hunting party, a party of hunters in the woods, and he takes off his clothes and climbs into one of their tents. I mean, he does everything to knowing how homophobic they are, he does everything that could possibly arouse their homophobia even further. So it was a very risky situation, one of many risky situations.

Mr.�COHEN: Well, that was (unintelligible) as well, in that we were told as well that you can't go up to one of these hunters and ask them to hand over their handguns. You know, it just wasn't deemed proper. And the funny thing was, I was actually in this scene I'm around the campfire and I'm talking to the hunters, and I look up at the stars and I go: Wow, you know, look at all the stars in the sky. It makes you think of all the hot guys out there.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr.�COHEN: And these hunters just went absolutely silent for about two minutes, and then they got up and then got hold of their shotguns and then in full view of us loaded their shotguns and clicked them shut. And you know, Larry spoke to them and said, listen, you know, guys, can you put down your shotguns? Because we knew that, you know, the next bit of the scene was we're all going to go to sleep in our tents and I was going to go and try and get into one of the hunters tents and try and make up all these excuses of going in the tent with him. You know, there's a bear outside. I think it's best for all of us if we just sleep together. And then eventually I would go naked and, you know, claim, you know, there's a bear, just ate all my clothes. You know, he devoured everything apart from these condoms. You know, shall I go in?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr.�COHEN: And unfortunately they had these loaded guns, and

Mr.�CHARLES: A lot of them.

GROSS: You're crazy.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr.�COHEN: Well, I remember lying in my tent, and you know, we had to I had to wait an hour until all the hunters were asleep because obviously these scenes play in real time. So I was with these hunting guys for almost seven hours and I'm lying there for an hour and I go, all right, now I'm going to take off my clothes. It's freezing outside, which is obviously not very flattering for the naked performer.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr.�COHEN: And there's a good chance I could have, you know, at least part of me blown off. But I just, you know, and I was thinking, do I do this scene, you know, weighing up the risks and the benefits. And then actually after a while you just go, well, we're here, we've gone all this way, it's taken so long to set up. You know, let's just do it.

GROSS: Sacha Baron Cohen and director Larry Charles will talk more about making their movie "Bruno" in the second half of the show. "Bruno" was released today on DVD. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Sacha Baron Cohen, the creator of the characters Ali G, Borat and Bruno and Larry Charles, the director of Cohen's films "Borat" and "Bruno."

"Bruno" was released today on DVD. Bruno is a gay Austrian fashion journalist who's incredibly shallow and doesnt know it. The movie is shot as if it were a documentary. The people in the film are real people who think Bruno is a real person, not just a character created by Cohen.

When we left off, we were talking about how Bruno went on a hunting trip in Alabama with several guys who loaded their guns when Bruno got flirtatious. I asked Larry Charles about getting these hunters to be in the film.

What kind of story did you give them when you...

Mr. CHARLES: It's a pretty simple story. I mean and he's...

GROSS: ...got their permission to bring the cameras?

Mr. CHARLES: He's a style reporter from a different country, and you know how people from different countries are, we know how those Europeans are and so be patient with him. He's wants to learn about American culture.

GROSS: And did you give them that rap or was that somebody else?

Mr. CHARLES: Usually it's a series of conditioning that goes on. Sometimes its somebody before me that broaches the subject and I might come in and talk to them in more detail. I might introduce them to Bruno or Borat. Borat or Bruno may actually have off camera conversations with them - and everything is designed as cues to get them relaxed and accepting of this alternate reality.

GROSS: And do you feel either like a liar or like an actor when you tell them something that's not the truth?

Mr. CHARLES: I feel like we are doing God's work.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: I dont know if I'd go that far, but, you know, we're trying to make a funny film that...

GROSS: Wait. Wait. Let's get back to the doing God's work thing. Why feel like...

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Why do feel like youre doing God's work.

Mr. CHARLES: Well, we're not First of all, we never force anyone to do anything. Okay? We are tapping into people's ego, people's vanity, peoples hubris. No one has ever - has their arm twisted or is manipulated, really, in any way to say the things that they say. We hope that they will say provocative funny things as a result of these conversations, but I dont feel that we are really deceiving.

We are presenting an alternate reality and we are playing in that alternate reality within the rules of that alternate reality. We never say oh, it's not Bruno. It's really Sacha Baron Cohen. Its not Borat its really - we are playing that reality until we get in our van and drive away. So as far as they're concerned, it is totally real. So I dont feel that it is a deception, in a way, because then you have to define what reality is in the first place and that's tough enough.

GROSS: Okay. But still, youre not giving them the straight story.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. Listen, I mean I would say this, you know, we're trying to make a funny film. That involves a little bit of fibbing. You know, it's somebody pretending to be something. I'm pretending to be something, you know.

Mr. CHARLES: But they dont know that. They dont know that, though.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah. Yes. It's true. But it's in the, you know, youre trying to make a funny film and it's that genre so I think it's acceptable, you know. And at the end of the day, people want to be on camera; they want to be famous. Which actually the whole film was tapping into...

Mr. CHARLES: Yeah.

Mr. COHEN: ...that desire to be famous and, you know, and actually, you know, be televised or be on film.

GROSS: Now some of the people in the film, youre putting them in impossible situations...

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: ...like there's a scene - you know, Bruno wants to be famous and he figures well, if I make a sex tape that'll - a sex tape will make me famous. That always gets people a lot of TV time. So he decides he needs to make a sex and so he tries to interview Ron Paul, the former presidential candidate and get to make a sex tape with him. So youre doing what appears to be a kind of straight forward interview in a hotel room and then what's the ruse that you use to get him into the bedroom of this hotel suite?

Mr. COHEN: Well, we say, on camera, that the, you know, Bruno is trying to, you know, he realizes to become famous he has to have sex with a celebrity, you know, in the way that Paris Hilton did. So we say that the cameras - you know, Bruno tells him oh, the camera's not working. Let's just go here in the next room and relax for a little bit.

GROSS: And then you start coming on to him. You pop the champagne. You tell him that you love to dance and then you put on some music and you start dancing. And then you take off your pants.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: And youre wearing this kind of like male G-string kind of thing. And he's just like - first he tries to just read the newspaper and act like I dont really see this; this isn't happening. And then he can't not notice what youre doing anymore and lets hear a - in fact, let's hear a clip from that scene.

(Soundbite of "Bruno")

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) Do you want some strawberries or maybe some ice...

Representative RON PAUL (Republican, Texas): No. I'm okay.

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) I'm going to light some candles if it's okay. It really loosens you up. Has anyone ever told you you look like Enrique Iglesias?

Rep. PAUL: Mm.

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) Of course, not. Youre much cuter.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) I love music...

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) ...and dancing. I used to be a dancer.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) Oh. You (unintelligible).

Rep. PAUL: Hey. Get out of here.

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) What?

Rep. PAUL: All right.

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) What's going on?

Rep. PAUL: This has ended. That guy's queerer than the blazes. He took his clothes off. Let's get going. He's queer. He's crazy. He put - he hit on me. He took his clothes off.

Mr. COHEN: (as Bruno) I couldnt even stoop RuPaul. How will I become world famous?

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: It's a really funny scene. But you know, really, seriously thinking about it, like what options did Ron Paul have? He couldnt very well stay in the room while youre stripping, you know? So what could he have done?

Mr. COHEN: Well listen, you know, a lot of this comedy is about putting people, hopefully who are good targets, in uncomfortable situations. That's the experiment. What does somebody as powerful as this, you know, somebody who's standing to be the leader of the free world, how does he cope with a man dancing in front of him, you know?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: It shouldnt be the biggest challenge in the world considering, you know, if he would've got the job he would've been in the U.N. facing Ahmadinejad or deciding whether to press the red button. You know, how does this guy - is he going to be able to cope with it if he has a Austrian fashion reporter dance provocatively in front of him in a hotel room? I mean incidentally, on the DVD as well, weve got - we did the same scene with Tom Ridge and John Bolton.

GROSS: Oh, and also Gary Bauer, the Christian activist.

Mr. CHARLES: Yeah.

Mr. COHEN: Yes.

GROSS: Yes. And why did you try out several different people - tell us why you did it several different from the political world...

Mr. COHEN: Well, well...

GROSS: ...how they reacted differently and why you chose Ron Paul in the end.

Mr. CHARLES: Keep in mind that again, this is one take filmmaking. So if we try with Gary Bauer or John Bolton and it doesnt quite work, it's very hard to make that scene work in the movie then. And so we try to do it more than once in different locations with different people, sometimes, if we can get those people.

And in this case, we did it a few times all in one day in Washington. We flew to Washington from Los Angeles, shot this all in one day and then flew back -these four different interviews. And ultimately, Ron Paul was the last and we had refined the process through the four - the three times we had done it previously. And so when Ron Paul came in it just wound up being the funniest version of the scene. And he was also probably the most powerful person of all the four people that we had.

GROSS: My guests are Sacha Baron Cohen, the creator of the characters Ali G, Borat and Bruno and Larry Charles who directed Cohen's films "Borat" and "Bruno." "Bruno" was released today on DVD.

More after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: If youre just joining us, my guests are Sacha Baron Cohen and Larry Charles. And Sacha Baron Cohen, of course, is the star of "Bruno" and "Borat," the creator and so also Larry Charles directed both of those films.

"Bruno" is now out on DVD with lots and lots of extras, alternative scenes and commentaries, interviews, lots of stuff.

How did it feel to be Bruno compared to being Borat? Like mentally, how did it feel?

Mr. COHEN: It, you know, he's a lot less naive in many ways. You know, you do kind of, when youre in character for seven-eight hours at a time, you do almost become the character. And youre in this weird dual state where, for example, with Borat, you know, he's so ignorant that he doesnt know what a chair is.

You know, what is this great machine? You know, that has a four legs?

It's chair.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: You know, but on the other hand, I have to be technically proficient. So occasionally I'm saying to the cameraman: please, two shot over here. You know, if Larry's not in the room or whatever.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: So you do actually semi become the guy in a way.

GROSS: Youve called - and like in the commentary part of the new DVD version of "Bruno" - youve called homophobia the last prejudice that youre allowed to have in many places. I would add to that, Islamophobia(ph).

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: You seem to be allowed to have that...

Mr. COHEN: Yes. Definitely.

GROSS: ...in many places too. But...

Mr. COHEN: That's not global. That's not global, though. Homophobia is global.

Mr. CHARLES: Right. You could go...

GROSS: Right. That's true. That's true.

Mr. CHARLES: ...to countries that are completely Islamic and you'll still have homophobia, so

GROSS: Plenty of it I'm sure. Yeah.

Mr. CHARLES: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: So did you become like hyper aware of homophobia while doing "Bruno?"

Mr. COHEN: Of course. There's no other way but to feel it, because youre feeling hatred every day. You know, bear in mind I've been through, you know, I've gone undercover as Ali G, who's a wannabe gangster and you know, is pretending to be black and actually some people think that he's black.

I've gone undercover as a foreigner, Borat, so you experience the attitudes there. And I've gone undercover as a, you know, somebody whos outwardly and proud to be gay, and definitely the most extreme reactions you get are as Bruno, you know, because there is an animosity and a fear, and occasionally a hatred that can spill into violence of gay people.

GROSS: The way I see your film, there's a comic character Bruno, who's being used by you to, in part, make fun of homophobia. But I know some people think that the movie kind of generates homophobia because Bruno is such, in some ways, stereotype character and has these kind of like crazy sex machines and so, like, sexually obsessed. So how did you respond to the people who felt that the film would make homophobia worse?

Mr. COHEN: There was a gay organization that came out and said this is bad for gay people and this is going to increase homophobia. And it was interesting, because when "Borat" came out, the Jewish organization, the Anti-Defamation League, came out and sad exactly the same thing. They said this is bad for Jewish people, and by making these anti-Semitic comments youre actually going to increase anti-Semitism.

So I was aware that, just because an organization says something it doesnt necessarily have its community's interests at heart. Do I have the gay community's interests at heart? I'd like to hope so. You know, I tried my best. Maybe some gay people could say that it failed, but it was definitely well intentioned. But with Bruno, the creation of Bruno, he has to be a physical incarnation of the homophobe's worst nightmare. You know, he's got to be so extreme that he couldnt actually exist, but when he has to be encountering people who are so prejudice that they believe that he is real. And so when youre in Arkansas with some homophobic hunters who are terrified that gay people rape people and you know, come on to people, you want to present them with their worst fear and see - present them with their nightmare and give them the homophobic angst that is homophobia. And fears can turn into violence very easily. So it's an interesting experience.

GROSS: One example of how youre film kind of plays with homophobia, your character at some point decides that you know, maybe he should try to become straight. So he goes to a second stage gay converter and - why dont you explain what a second stage gay converter is.

Mr. COHEN: Well, there are people who if you are gay you can send them to certain organizations to get converted or to get cured of this supposed illness of homosexuality. And there are, you know, camps where you can learn how to be straight and they're full of you know, gay guys who are pretending to be straight and some of them become, you know, gay converters themselves. But the scene after that actually I, Bruno, you know, is told that he has to be with women and actually encounter women and socialize with them and potentially at one point have sex with a woman. And theres a scene of me at a swingers party. And I encounter this sort of extremely strong, six-foot-one woman with huge, probably four-foot breasts, who tries to make love to me essentially.

GROSS: Well, and she whips you.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: She she is a dominatrix and she takes your belt and whips you with it. And when I was watching the movie in the theater, I thought well, hopefully thats not really a real leather belt and the slapping sound were hearing, hopefully thats added sound effects because otherwise this is going to be hurting a lot and apparently it did hurt a lot.

Mr. CHARLES: All real, all real, Terry. I mean, that was a scene that, again, when were lucky and things are really clicking, the scenes take on a life of their own beyond anything we could have imagined. And in that situation we were very surprised. She started off being kind of gentle and temperate. And the scene wasnt really happening and she came outside the room, and I said look, you have to go in there, you have to have sex with him or youre not getting paid essentially. And she went back in and she got much more aggressive and on her own of her own volition took that belt out and started hitting him and we, you know, I was watching on the monitor and I couldnt believe it myself. But hes being hit for real. And you could see the welts afterwards. And ironically we were so obsessed with the whipping that we didnt even think about the window that he burst through, and he jumps out the window. We never thought that, oh, well that window could break, he can get cuts. And, you know, and hes running naked through this broken glass and stuff like that. So, its a very very dangerous scene in its own way as well.

Mr. COHEN: I should say as a scene she doesnt know she is in a scene. This woman was just told listen, weve got this Austrian virgin here. Hes never had sex with a woman before. Youve got to have sex with him, you know.

Mr. CHARLES: Hes going to resist, you know, and you cannot allow him to resist. You cannot allow him to say, no.

Mr. COHEN: And once I was in the room with her, I was actually a little bit terrified because she is - I think she is physically clearly physically stronger than me, and armed with these huge stilettos.

Mr. CHARLES: And your belt.

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, and my belt which actually really started burning. And, you know, Im there being hit thinking I should really stop the scene because this is really painful now, but then in the back of my mind Ive got this, you know, Ive got this duel thing going on, you know, part of me is going will this could make, you know, good cinema.

Mr. CHARLES: Well, also I should say that we had a conversation in the van before Sacha went into the scene. And he said look, stop the scene if it looks like Im going to have sex. And I said, okay, fine. But when hes being whipped, it didnt look like he was going to have sex. So I didnt think I had to stop the scene.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Do you think that you can still do films like that this where youre a character out in the world and people dont realize that youre a character, that youre acting, or is it (unintelligible) under the line?

Mr. COHEN: No, I dont - I dont think I can and - which is part of the reason why Im speaking to you, and why were both speaking to you, is that I think basically its impossible to do now. Its too well known as a genre, and its just too hard to get people not to recognize me. And also I think I was lucky as a performer in Borat and Bruno that I didnt get permanently hurt. And

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: I dont really want to risk that anymore. I think we were lucky, you know, you try everything you do to make sure that somebody doesnt pull out a gun, that somebody that you dont get permanently disabled but at some point, you know, you are relying on luck. And, I think, weve been very lucky where were thankful that weve been so lucky. But I think for that reason as well I think its the end of the line for that kind of a movie. And so now the challenge is doing films that are scripted where I dont have to plan an escape route.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: And where I dont have to fear getting arrested.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. COHEN: I mean, I remember when I went on set for Talladega Nights with Will Ferrell, I couldnt believe - they took me to my trailer and Id never had a trailer before, you know. When were making Borat I was in a van and in the van was the guy who did my makeup, the guy who was my, you know, did my costumes and my co-writer. And suddenly I had a, you know, I had a trailer and I could go and ask somebody to get me food and there was a TV in the trailer, and there was no - there was no planning of escape routes or what wed do if the police turned up. There was none of the attention and it was just it felt like a holiday. I couldnt believe this is actually how you make films.

GROSS: Well what you do what youve done is acting as the equivalent of extreme sports. Its like extreme acting.

Mr. COHEN: Yep. Its unpleasant...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COHEN: for the most part. No, but listen, when it goes well, theres nothing like it.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. COHEN: Theres not a - I cannot compare the experience of, you know, the scene at the cage match of, you know, having that work successfully on a story level and on a dramatic level and on a comic level and its pulling off a scene. Its, you know, a romantic combination to a romantic comedy in front of 1,500 people who want you dead and then coming off and knowing youve got the scene. And its, you know, its gold. Theres nothing like that exhilaration.

GROSS: Larry Charles, Sacha Baron Cohen, thank you both so much for talking with us.

Mr. COHEN: Thank you very much for having us on this program.

Mr. CHARLES: Thank you Terry, thank you.

GROSS: Sacha Baron Cohen created the characters Ali G, Borat and Bruno. Larry Charles directed the films Borat and Bruno. Bruno was released today on DVD. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.