The Jacksonville Jaguars Play, But Not On TV

REBECCA ROBERTS, host:

And now, Neal Conan, your usual host for this program is back in Florida. I can't help but notice Neal tends to go to Florida in the winter, this time on the other side of the state, hanging out at member station WJCT in Jacksonville, Florida. He joins us from there today with a story about a subject that might be close to many of your hearts, football.

NEAL CONAN, host:

Thanks, Rebecca. That's right. A lot of fans here are not happy. This season, a once unusual phenomenon has become commonplace. You've got your chili on the stove, the team jersey on, the beer chilled. You turn on the flat screen and, boom, blackout.

If you're here in Jacksonville, that's happened every single home game this season. It's because of the National Football League's policy. A game will not be broadcast in the team's local market if the stadium is not filled out 72 hours prior to kickoff. The rule dates to 1973. It's intended to spur ticket sales. In most markets, most of the time it's hardly ever invoked. But in these tough economic times, well, it's not just Jacksonville.

Fans in Arizona, Cincinnati, Detroit, San Diego, Cleveland, let us know how you feel about this rule. Do blackouts work? Does the threat get you off the couch and into the stadium? Call us: 800-989-8255. Email is talk@npr.org. And you can join the conversation on our Web site. That's at npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION.

Our guest here in the studios of WJCT is Abel Harding. He's the business columnist at the Florida Times Union. And thanks very much for coming in.

Mr. ABEL HARDING (Business columnist, Florida Times Union): Thank you.

CONAN: And it's been a tough season. We just found out that today, Sunday's game against the Houston Texans is going to be, guess what, blacked out.

Mr. HARDING: That's correct and that's been the trend all year. And it will continue. Really, their hope is - we've got December 17th game coming up against the Colts, and they're hoping that that will be the one game so we don't become the only team in the NFL history to ever have a completely blacked out season.

CONAN: Blacked out. Well, that's an attractive team, Peyton Manning and the as yet undefeated Indianapolis Colts.

Mr. HARDINGH: Sure. Sure.

CONAN: So, a nationally broadcast game, too.

Mr. HARDING: Our only nationally broadcast game of the season.

CONAN: How many - as I understand it, like 46,000 people, something like that go to the games on average?

Mr. HARDING: Yeah. On average, we've averaged this year a little bit less than that. And that's been part of the issue, the stadium seats right around 66,000 people. And the big problem is last year we had 17,000 ticket holders not renew their season tickets.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. HARDING: You talk about a trend. That's a pretty big number for any team to make up. And that was a big hit.

CONAN: You see in a lot of markets if, you know, they are 3,000 seats short of selling out, the local pizza operator...

Mr. HARDING: Yeah.

CONAN: ...or somebody will buy up the last 3,000 seats. But, you know, pumping out for 20,000 seats, that's a lot.

Mr. HARDING: Yeah. Well, and that's what used to happen here. Winn-Dixie is a national grocery chain. They used to step up to the plate. They'd buy a couple of thousand tickets. The TV station, the local TV station who was going to broadcast it would buy tickets so they could, you know, obviously�

CONAN: Sell commercials.

Mr. HARDING: Exactly. But when you lose 17,000 ticket holders and all of a sudden you're down to 25,000 regular season ticket holders, and you've got to sell out a 66,000-seat stadium, that's a lot of tickets for local merchants to purchase.

CONAN: And must raise questions here in Jacksonville, at least, are you in fact worthy of having a National Football League team? Is this a major league city?

Mr. HARDING: That's the big question that's been raging all year. And it's not a new question, it's just really become pertinent this year. And we've had local leaders, the Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce has stepped up to the plate and said, we are an NFL city. We're going to remain one and we're going to prove to the rest of the country we can retain that.

So they've really stepped to the plate. They've got a push going on to sell tickets for the December 17th game. And then really develop a plan long-term over the next two to three years to prove to a future owner that the team is viable in Jacksonville.

CONAN: And it's not just that the team is suddenly much worse this year than it has been in the past.

Mr. HARDING: No.

CONAN: It's not great and hasn't been for much of its history. But nevertheless, it really reflects the tough economic times hitting here pretty hard.

Mr. HARDING: They are. And that's part of the issue. Last year, they had a quite a terrible season and we still didn't struggle with blackouts. So it's the economy, it's the team. They lost a star player, was let go, Fred Taylor, who was a University of Florida grad. A lot of people had followed him for years. That played into that. And so you combine all these forces together and that's where you came up with your 17,000.

CONAN: Well, you've mentioned something, University of Florida - this state is famous for ferocious, fanatic�

Mr. HARDING: Yeah.

CONAN: �following of college football, pro football not so much. Miami has always had a problem. Tampa has always had problem.

Mr. HARDING: Tampa has always had a problem. And I grew up, you know, very close to Tampa, and they were never selling out at that point. But they've somehow turned it around. But it has been a struggle here, and particularly when you have the University of Florida who's had two of the last national - two of three last national titles, they've had -it's - people get used to winning.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. HARDING: They want to go watch a winning team, and so they watch it on Saturday. And if their NFL team isn't winning locally, it becomes kind of a has-been.

CONAN: It becomes a cycle because they don't go�

Mr. HARDING: Exactly.

CONAN: �and they don't go and they don't go.

Mr. HARDING: Exactly. Yeah.

CONAN: Have ticket prices come down in an attempt to lure the fans back?

Mr. HARDING: They have. And I've got to give it to the Jaguars organization. They've really tried to come up with plans, and they even said they're going to work on more plans. But, right now, Jacksonville, if you compare ticket prices across the league, we're third from the bottom in average ticket price. So, you know, it's hard to argue that the ticket - they are expensive to a lot of people, yes. But when you're third from the bottom in average ticket price, it's hard to argue that that's the sole reason.

CONAN: We're talking with Abel Harding, a business columnist at the Florida Times Union, here at WJCT in Jacksonville about the NFL blackout policy. Well, this is the epicenter. Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. Let's go to the phones and we'll start with Michelle(ph) in Cincinnati.

MICHELLE (Caller): Hi.

CONAN: Hi, Michelle.

MICHELLE: Hi. I just have always thought it's so aggravating that we voted a tax increase so that we could build new stadium for the Bengals, the team I love. And most businesses don't get a voting go for them and it's their own responsibility to sell their products. So I don't think it's fair to the taxpayers when a game is blacked out.

CONAN: Those taxpayers who, of course, helped contribute to construct the facility. Indeed, that's a question that has come up, the Jacksonville facility?

Mr. HARDING: Absolutely. And that's been a big deal, and that's where it goes back to a lot of people saying maybe the NFL is being a bit greedy here, enforcing the blackout rule in the middle of an economic downturn, maybe if they - they're making plenty of money. Maybe if they had some consideration, they might waive it for a year or so but they have not done that. And there's been a lot of discussion about that (unintelligible)�

CONAN: Well - and Michelle, how often have the Bengals been blacked out?

MICHELLE: I know at least once. We have a channel where we are lucky to be able to find it somewhere else. But those people who can least afford tickets certainly don't have that option. And I see a lot of money spent on old time uniforms and things like that and it just doesn't seem like fair play.

CONAN: The Bengals are having also a terrific season this year and�

MICHELLE: They sure are.

CONAN: �people are going back for those throwback uniforms. They were pretty hideous, so they must love their team.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MICHELLE: I guess. But I love the Bengals, but I think they should always be on.

CONAN: Thanks very much for the phone call. Appreciate it.

Mr. HARDING: Thank you.

CONAN: Let's go next to Phil(ph). Phil is calling us from Stockton, Oklahoma.

PHIL (Caller): Well, actually I'm calling in from Stockton, California. My apologies there.

CONAN: Okay. All right. Well, it said OK here. Maybe they meant that you're okay.

PHIL: We're fine and we're okay here.

CONAN: Okay.

PHIL: The market that we're in - we're San Francisco �49ers and Oakland, and we've seen some blackout activity. And there are two things that we have to look at. One, is the team actually going to perform and make a game worthy of coming to, because you'd have not only the drive over to see the game, then you have to worry about parking and then getting out of the game. So, you know, that's another four or five hours on top of the game. So it's a full game day event for sure. But then�

CONAN: And�

PHIL: �my family of four, it is $500 bill for me to be able to take them to go see the football game, by the time it's all over and done with. Five hundred bucks is a nice chunk of change for a normal working family.

CONAN: It sure is. And they're trying to get you to sign up to various kind of season plans, partial seasons, that sort of thing. It's a major commitment.

PHIL: That it is. That it is. And, you know, we have a minor league hockey and so forth, and we find that, you know, the lower prices that we can afford to pay there make it a worthwhile and exciting event.

CONAN: It's interesting point you should make. There is - here in Jacksonville, Abel, a Minor League baseball team�

Mr. HARDING: Yes.

CONAN: � the Jacksonville Suns, AA, Southern League, how do they do?

Mr. HARDING: They do very well. And - but they've had a very successful few years in competing for the title. So - I mean, you go there on a Saturday night and they've got quite a crowd, so they're doing fine.

CONAN: But those prices are way, way lower.

Mr. HARDING: Significantly less, and you can park for, let's say, five or $10 as opposed to $20 for parking. And then, by the time you buy beer and hotdogs and�

CONAN: Yeah. Given what Phil is talking about, maybe the business plan of an NFL franchise is just beyond what people are willing to do in this market.

Mr. HARDING: Well, that's the big question. And then, that's what community leaders are finally stepping up and saying, we - you know, we believe it is and we're going to show the rest of the country that it is.

CONAN: All right. Phil, thanks very much and I apologize for mistaking your state.

PHIL: Not a problem.

CONAN: Let's go next�

PHIL: Thanks very much. Bye-bye.

CONAN: Get another caller and this is Paul(ph). Paul is Garden Valley, California.

PAUL (Caller): Hello.

CONAN: Hi, Paul. Go ahead.

PAUL: Hi. I'm in the foothills east of Sacramento, and the Oakland Raider games are blacked out for us most home games. I just - I don't feel that a blackout rule necessary promotes or encourages people to go out and buy tickets - really to the contrary. I think that it kind of makes people a little angry.

CONAN: And therefore less likely to go to the game?

PAUL: Less likely, yeah. I don't think that it - you know, for a larger fan base, I don't think that it really gets people to - or motivates people to go out and see games. You know, the cost of games is prohibitively expensive to a lot of the fans and they would rather watch it on TV anyway.

CONAN: Okay. Thanks very much for the phone call. And he does raise an historical point.

Mr. HARDING: Sure.

CONAN: We mentioned this policy dates back to 1973. It was more restrictive. Before that - I'm old enough to remember that people would - I lived in and around New York City at the time - they would drive across the Connecticut line, where every motel on I-95 just on the other side of the Connecticut line, said, you know, football games available here. And you'd rent a room for the afternoon because they were always blacked out in the home markets.

Mr. HARDING: That was the policy and that - some of the greatest games ever played were blacked out in their home markets, so it's kind of an interesting point. But he does bring up a point. The problem with Jacksonville is it's such a young team in terms of it's only been here, you know�

CONAN: Not a lot of tradition.

Mr. HARDING: Exactly. So to build that fan base, you need to kids to grow up watching the team. And when it's blacked out every Sunday that they've got a hung game, that makes it difficult.

CONAN: We're talking with Abel Harding of the Florida Times Union about the NFL blackout policy rule. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION coming to you from NPR News.

And ultimately, Abel, one of the questions it raises is, might this team migrate? There has been talk that there, apparently, is no National Football League team in Los Angeles, of all places.

Mr. HARDING: We have a perfect team for them, the Raiders. I mean, everyone already still calls them the L.A. Raiders, so that would be a perfect move. We're happy with the Jaguars here in Jacksonville, and we want to keep it that way, but obviously that's the concern that community leaders have. The team has a tremendous economic impact on the city. It's brought a lot of positive energy to the city over the past 15 years. It's brought a Super Bowl to Jacksonville, something that would have never been fathomed - we would never fathom would be able to happen. So it's done a lot of positive things for Jacksonville, and that's what you're really seeing people starting to step up and say, they recognize that it appears to be almost imminent if something is not done very quickly.

CONAN: That's a big issue of debate because a lot of people say, wait a minute, they question the amount of taxpayer money that goes into having a franchise here and building facilities and associated infrastructure, off ramps and that sort of thing for the football team or the baseball team or whatever. You're saying the cache of having a major league franchise, in this case an NFL franchise, is well worth it for the city?

Mr. HARDING: Well, sure. I mean, there's a couple of different things you look at. For one thing, their median salary is significantly higher than the average citizen here in the city. So, you know, they employ a number of people there. There's a lot of - a couple of 100 people employed at their organization. There are jobs provided on the weekends when the team is in town playing games. So there's a good economic impact, but not just that but in terms of the marketing dollars. And that's where the city argues they would never be able to afford to spend the money to market themselves nationally like they're able to do with the Jaguars, particularly when the Super Bowl came to town. The city would have never been able to afford that type of marketing exposure.

CONAN: And the other part - we happen to be, this radio station, WJCT, just across the street�

Mr. HARDING: Yeah.

CONAN: �from the park. But if the Jaguars weren't there, it would be used for, what, one event a year?

Mr. HARDING: Well, then that's the issue. The Florida-Georgia game obviously is the biggest sports event that goes on in this city every year. And would the city be able to maintain the stadium to the levels it needs to be maintained just for one game a year?

CONAN: Let's get another caller on the line. Let's go to Steve(ph). And Steve is calling us from Detroit.

STEVE (Caller): Hi. I just wanted to let you know that even though I have cable, I'm not sure if they've been blacking out the Lions. We're sure hoping they do.

(Soundbite of laughter)

CONAN: Hey, they've won a game this year.

STEVE: Well, you know�

Mr. HARDING: Not last year.

STEVE: You can only lose so much, although nobody has ever done what the Lions managed to do last season, so we're proud of that.

CONAN: Last year, no. It's an unprecedented achievement, and they won't repeat it this year. Thanks very much for the call, Steve.

STEVE: All right. Thanks.

CONAN: Now, let's go next to Jerry(ph). Jerry calling us from Buffalo.

JERRY (Caller): Hello, Neal. I'm so glad you took my call. And I really just want to maybe expand a little bit on the point that Steve just made. And for an NFL franchise, we up here in Buffalo have 80,000-seat outside arena, and we have the worst snow in the world, we consistently sell that stadium out every year. And that's because relatively, up to this point, Buffalo has put a good product out onto the field. Some would argue yes, and some would argue no.

The problem with Jacksonville is their team stinks. And you can't expect people to sit there and fork out even if their seats are the third bottom - of lowest in price wise, you can't expect them to put their hard-earned dollars to go watch a team that's going to lose consistently week after week.

CONAN: And the magnet there in Buffalo, if some people were concerned that that team might end up in Toronto.

JERRY: Yes, exactly. They might. But - you got to give the people of Buffalo credit. They consistently sell out that stadium. And even with a bad season like this, they've stood by the Buffalo Bills, and sold that stadium out.

CONAN: Well, a lot more history there, anyway. But Jerry, thanks very much for the phone call.

JERRY: Thanks for taking me.

CONAN: And Abel, one last question for you, Sunday in this blacked-out game, are you going to be in the seats watching the Houston Texans?

Mr. HARDING: No. I actually be out of town this weekend, but I will be there on the 17th when they take on the Colts, absolutely.

CONAN: Abel Harding, thanks very much for your time today.

Mr. HARDING: Thank you.

CONAN: Abel Harding is business columnist for the Florida Times Union. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.