Teaching the Young to Empathize with the Old

NEAL CONAN, host:

This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Jason Wilson walked slowly and painfully. His feet hurt. His knees were stiff. His breath was short. It took him 10 minutes to button his shirt, and he looked around cautiously with eyes he could no longer trust.

And while that sounds like the description of a very old man, Jason Wilson is in his 30's. He was taking part in a program that simulates what life is like for the aged. He is the editor of The Smart Set, an online magazine published at Drexel University. And he joins us now from the studios at Audio Post Philadelphia.

Thanks very much for coming in today.

Jason?

Mr. JASON WILSON (Editor, The Smart Set): Yes.

CONAN: Hi. There you are.

Mr. WILSON: Hi.

CONAN: So what was wrong at your feet?

Mr. WILSON: My feet? Well, I had kernels of corn that I put in - that were put in my shoes to simulate the sensation of getting old, of losing sort of muscle mass there and scraping bone against shoe.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. WILSON: And that - and then, I had bandages on my knees and on my elbows, which made it very difficult to move around. I had earplugs in my ears, which made it very difficult to hear. And I wore glasses smeared with petroleum jelly just to simulate cataracts.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. WILSON: So it was a very enjoyable experience, let me tell you.

CONAN: You also had to breath through a straw to simulate shortness of breath, and one of your nostrils was stuffed with a cotton ball.

Mr. WILSON: That's right, so I couldn't taste food. And so I was - so I looked really silly, wandering around campus. But I had a caregiver who was assisting me and - so that was helpful. But I couldn't taste my food, I couldn't taste the oatmeal cookie I was given, so I was in a pretty bad place.

CONAN: And there were some tests you were given, one of which with the plugs in your ears as somebody was saying some words to you and you couldn't puzzle them out.

Mr. WILSON: Well, I was given an unfair hearing test - that's what it's called - and, yeah, it was impossible to understand. The word catch, I heard as kept; I heard the word thumb, it sounded like friend; and the word shoes, inexplicably sounded like sold. It was impossible. And this test was given to me a sociology professor at Rutgers University in Camden named Monika Deppen Wood, and she, you know, goes through this aging simulation with her students in a class called sociology of aging.

CONAN: Mm-hmm. And there was also - you had to look up a number in a phone book.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: Yes, I did have to look up a number at a phonebook with my cataract-impaired vision - my fake cataract-impaired vision, which was really impossible. The name was B. Feltroe(ph) and I was looking instead of the F's, I was looking in the Z's. It was really impossible.

CONAN: And did this…

Mr. WILSON: So I felt the - I felt, you know, very sympathetic to the old woman that calls my house at least once a week, looking for, you know, insisting that the Wilson she's calling is indeed the right one, that I'm indeed the right one. And I keep politely telling her that no, that she's got the wrong number. So I…

CONAN: And I guess that's the point of these programs is to teach us to have a little more understanding of what the elderly people we encounter in our lives, what they're going through?

Mr. WILSON: That's true. That is the point of - that's the point of these aging sensitivity training that - and I've been to three of them now, so I guess I should be rather empathetic, shouldn't I?

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

Today, we're going to talk about our impatience with the elderly and what we don't understand about their lives. If you're older, what is it that we younger folks just don't get? If you're younger, what questions do you have about what it's like to be old? Remember we all hope to get there one day. Our number is 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail us: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our blog at npr.org/blogofthenation.

Later in the program: the death of Lisa Moore, a character in the "Funky Winkerbean" comic strip.

But now, let's get back to what it's like to be old. And joining us - Jason Wilson mentioned one of those programs, but joining us now is Peg Gordon, she's an intergenerational coordinator at the Macklin Intergenerational Institute in Finley, Ohio, with us today on the phone from her office there.

Thanks very much for being with us.

Ms. PEG GORDON (Intergenerational Coordinator, Macklin Intergenerational Institute): Thank you.

CONAN: And you teach a class called Xtreme Aging training. Who is it that goes for Xtreme Aging training?

Ms. GORDON: Well, you know we've had a wide variety of ages that come to this training. So we have trained elementary school children, we have trained businesses in the area, and we have, you know, had people up to the age of 88 go through our training.

CONAN: And the training that Jason Wilson was describing, that's sort of what same - along the same lines of what you do?

Ms. GORDON: It is. It's very similar. It's interactive. We want to age people until about the of 85, give them a series of tasks, but we also really want to strive towards what happens to them emotionally and spiritually as well as physically. So there are tasks then to help identify what happens.

CONAN: Such as?

Ms. GORDON: In the training, we ask people to identify their most priced possessions, what privileges they value the most and the people that are most important to them. We ask them to identify them, to write them on a single piece of paper each. Through the training, we just start removing those. So not only are people physically not able to get around when they're getting frustrated, but then they, in a very mild way, start understanding what it's like to start losing the things that are very, very important to us.

CONAN: Jason Wilson, I know you went through this process as well, what was that like?

Mr. WILSON: I did indeed. And it was - it was interesting. We - when we arrived, we were asked to list terms of what we associate with aging, and we said things like gray hair and wrinkles and joint replacement, dementia, car accidents, all these horrible things. We listed…

CONAN: Yeah. Makes you really look forward to it, doesn't it?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: And, so we were a group clearly in need of some sensitivity training, and we moved on from there. And I remember at one point, we were supposed to write our names and - with our opposite hand and Peg was walking around behind us, shouting, hurry up, hurry up, and we were - it was a really stressful and it's sort of - I think we were told that if - that was like as if we were a recovering stroke victim who was trying to do a task.

Ms. GORDON: Right. That's very right. You are given tasks that are very difficult with one person saying, oh, take your time and being a bit patronizing and the other one saying, come on, we don't have all day. And the idea - it's very confusing, and mixed messages are given or received when people are suffering from things like strokes.

CONAN: Let's see if we can get some listeners involved in this conversation. If you're among those who are older than most of us, what don't we younger people get? If you're one of those younger people, what questions do you have about what it's like when you're 85 and infirm? 800-989-8255, e-mail: talk@npr.org. And Mitch(ph) is on the line with us. Mitch from - is that Cairo in Michigan?

MITCH (Caller): Yeah, it's Cairo, Michigan. It's in the thumb.

CONAN: Oh, up in the thumb. Okay. Go ahead, please.

MITCH: This is more of just a quick story. I sell flooring - carpet, hardwood in that. And shortly after I started about seven years ago, this really old man came in, he must have been 85, and I'm excited, I want to sell him this great carpet. I said, this is the greatest carpet. It will last you 20 years.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MITCH: He stopped. He kind of hits me in the chest. He says, look at me. Show me a three-year carpet.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. GORDON: Well.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MITCH: It was kind of macabre, but it actually reminded me of my mortality and it instantly made me take into consideration what people want.

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

MITCH: And, you know, the guy just want a simple carpet to get him through a few years, and what happens after that happens. But it was just kind of interesting and I remembered that and I really tried to take into consideration what would be a good flooring for somebody who's got a walker, or they're going to be transitioning from floor to floor. And if they're old, they need to be able to do that safely. So…

CONAN: Mm-hmm.

MITCH: …I think about that. And I eat right - I eat my whole grains everyday so I'll last really, really long and I can grow into my hundreds.

(Soundbite of laughter)

CONAN: Mitch, thanks very much for the call.

MITCH: Thanks, Neal.

CONAN: So long.

Mr. WILSON: Bye.

CONAN: And I guess that's a variation on the old line, Peg Gordon, about people who don't buy green bananas anymore.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. GORDON: Sure. I'm not familiar with that, but sure.

CONAN: And I wonder, business people like Jason, who called - is that part of the reason they take these classes with you?

Ms. GORDON: Yeah. A lot of times - it's amazing industry. Building inspectors were having a hard time and they work on a very tight schedule. Having a hard time getting through their day on schedule. And when we spoke to a group of these people, it - suddenly the light bulb went on. Oh, older people need more time.

CONAN: Yeah.

Ms. GORDON: So it is. It's amazing where this training sits in. We have done it with elementary school children, who are going to be coming into the long-term care facility to work on projects. So we'll put them through a training so that they are aware of what they're going to see and what their new grandfriends are going to be like and what they're going to be going through.

CONAN: Let's get another caller on the line. This is Gail(ph), Gail with us from Ann Arbor, Michigan.

GAIL (Caller): Well, hi there.

CONAN: Hi.

GAIL: I've gotten even more thoughts. My initial thought about this discussion was as my mother aged, and I took care of her, her decline was marked by the same kind of memory disorientation, those kind of problems that a lot of old people have.

Well, I found that if I just reverted to being a kid, she understood me a lot better. And now, as a teacher of older adults - I teach water aerobics to older adults and people of all ages actually. But in my older people classes, the sillier I get, the jokier I become, the more into it they get.

My father always said that there is such a thing as a second childhood and it is our responsibility to enjoy it.

CONAN: Mm-hmm. Do you worry sometimes that you might be infantilizing your clients, that they maybe - you're treating them like children?

GAIL: I want them to be children. I want them to be happy. I want them to just let loose, let their bodies go, unloose the stiff and - I mean, we're in the water. It is…

CONAN: And having a good time splashing around.

GAIL: And we can float and we can splash and we can kick and we can get our heart rates up and we can have a lot of fun. I think that a very important thing that gets lost as people age is just that they stop having fun.

CONAN: Hmm. Thanks very much for the call, Gail. I appreciate it.

GAIL: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

CONAN: We're talking with Jason Wilson and Peg Gordon about programs that teach us what it's like to be aged - Xtreme Aging, where younger people get a chance to experience what it's like to be older and hopefully learn a little empathy in the process.

Join us: 800-989-8255, e-mail: talk@npr.org. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. A bit later in the program, a serious illness and death on the funny pages. We'll talk with the creator of "Funky Winkerbean" comic strip about his character, Lisa Moore.

Right now, we're talking about Xtreme Aging, programs that help younger people understand a little more about what it's like to be older through real life simulations.

Jason Wilson went through these classes. He joins us today. He's the editor of The Smart Set, an independent online magazine published at Drexel University. Also with us is Peg Gordon who teaches Xtreme Aging, a class on what it's like to be old.

And we want to hear from you. If you're older, what is it that younger folks just don't get? If you're younger, what questions do you have about what it's like to be old? 800-989-8255, e-mail: talk@npr.org.

And, Peg Gordon, is there any way to simulate - just remembering our last caller and some of the other questions - that mental problems that some older people have, the inability to remember names and numbers and slipping memory.

Ms. GORDON: You know, we do a lot with constant confusion, which I know is not losing memory, but it is the beginning of constant confusion. So it's sending a lot of mixed messages, making things that aren't clear, and that touches on the memory part.

CONAN: Jason Wilson, I wonder, did you experience anything that might've approached that kind of mental problem?

Mr. WILSON: I don't think so because when they're in the training, I mean, I know I can just take the glasses off or the earplugs out. But, you know, a point that that last caller touched on and I think that people who are my age or, you know, baby boomers, that age group kind of forgets is that, you know, it's old people do have fun. I mean, maybe - I'm not sure about the, you know, infantilizing like that caller was suggesting, but…

CONAN: No, that was my suggestion.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: Okay. My - a few years ago, I spent some time in Florida. I spent the winter playing shuffleboard in St. Petersburg at the Shuffleboard Club in St. Petersburg, and I spent a lot of time with the population that plays shuffleboard, which is very old. And those people had a lot of fun. They had a lot - there was a lot, you know, there's a lot to be said for growing old. It's a fun time, I think, sometimes.

CONAN: Hmm. Did you shoot to the top of the league standings?

Mr. WILSON: No, I gut crushed. It was terrible.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: I got beat by, oh, an 88-year-old man who came over with a cane. I got beat by someone wearing orthopedic shoes. I got beat by a woman that was 97. I was terrible.

CONAN: Experience is important, I guess, in everything, so…

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: Of course it is.

CONAN: Let's see if we can get a caller on the line now. This is Carol(ph), Carol with us from Cincinnati.

CAROL (Caller): Hello.

CONAN: Hi.

CAROL: Yes, so I went and spent the last four months living with my parents who are in their late 80s. They're both 88 years old. And I went because, you know, I'd go to see them on the weekend and I'd get one profile. But I thought, you know, I really want to see what it's like for them, what their lives are like. So, yeah, I just spent four months there. And I found that they are very, you know, still themselves in so many ways, although there are so many things that they have to deal with, you know, stroke and illness and things.

But my dad just built a roll top desk at 88. And he has problems getting around, but he forced himself down into the workshop everyday to do that. And then, my mom was having trouble staying awake during the day. We figured out she needed a little oxygen. And the first thing she did was go get involved with planning a Halloween thing. But it's interesting because she says, I get so sick and tired of those old people over at the senior center.

(Soundbite of laughter)

CAROL: Everybody over there is younger than her. But in both of my parent's minds, what they do is they just - and this often because all the people they used to know are gone, dead. Everybody on their Christmas card list, they've outlived their friends. But they continue to get involved and just be alive and do things.

CONAN: I guess, Peg Gordon, that's one of the things that you try to simulate when you take those cards away, when people have written down their best friends - the name of their best friends and their most priced possessions.

Ms. GORDON: Yeah, and you know what, that's one of the hardest parts of the training for some people is to remove that piece of paper that signifies that they're no longer in the - that person or that possession is no longer part of their life.

We've had people who just breakdown and sob. And the thing is, we can always go and see that person afterwards.

CONAN: Yeah.

Ms. GORDON: We have to remember that when they're lost in real life, they're not - we can't just put the paper back.

CONAN: Yeah. Thanks very much, Carol.

CAROL: Sure.

CONAN: Bye. Here's an e-mail we got from Kitty(ph) in Rochester, New York. I helped my aunt through her final years. She lost so much - hearing and vision, ability to walk without help, ability to know when she needed to go to the bathroom. She missed most of the independence she had all her life prior to her last few years. Dependence would make her angry sometimes, even with her caregivers, even though she really loved us.

And I guess that level of frustration - Jason Wilson, that level of frustration can really build up?

Mr. WILSON: Yes, I guess it can. I mean, during the aging sensitivity - you know, I think it's difficult. I think these - those are sorts of things that are very difficult to simulate. I mean, we're only doing this training for a half hour, 40 minutes. And, you know, we can - we could take the oversized latex gloves off and we can, you know, we can go back to normal. So I don't know that we can ever completely empathize. I mean, I know we can and we completely empathize with someone who's going through it in real life.

CONAN: Yeah.

Ms. GORDON: I think we're giving them tools to understand it, though. And that's the first step.

CONAN: Yeah.

Ms. GORDON: And how they choose to deal with it and use those tools, then it's up to them.

CONAN: Let's talk to Jeffrey(ph), Jeffrey with us from Tulsa, Oklahoma.

JEFFREY (Caller): Yeah. I had a stroke at the age of 24 due to a traumatic head injury, and I suddenly aged about 25 years.

CONAN: Yeah.

JEFFREY: I was forced to - joined by my personality and joined by my male capacity and try and regain my confidence. And all these things that I realized having gone through it that are - effects you have on you when you age, and that I had to suddenly deal with. And the reality is I've made a phenomenal recovery and I'm going - I'm de-aging now, but I'm waiting for the apex in which I start aging again. You know, since I'm 38, I mentioned that'll happen in the next few years, just hopefully a few more than I want.

CONAN: Yeah. Jeffrey, I dealt with this a little bit. My father had a stroke before he died. And one of the things that totally frustrated him was his loss of dignity, that he had to be helped to be fed and other bodily functions that had, you know, obviously taken care of since he was a very, very small boy.

JEFFREY: Well I didn't have to deal with that, though. I didn't have - I was - I had a step gait in my walk for two weeks. But there were not (unintelligible) and my right side of my face was numb for a couple of three weeks, too. But I didn't really have any of those physical problems that your dad had. But it was definitely a learning experience and it definitely gives you a kindness and generosity towards the effects of aging on - with everybody that you meet.

CONAN: Yeah. Thanks very much, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY: Thank you.

CONAN: Here's an e-mail we got, this from Kris(ph). Has anyone who runs these programs considered taking it to prisons or to juvenile delinquent centers? It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it seems some forced empathy might dissuade criminal offenses against the aged.

And, Peg Gordon, I wonder if that's ever been part of your proper program?

Ms. GORDON: You know what, I can say I have not ever done that, but gosh, that opens up a door for me. Now, I'm thinking, well, what could we do and how could we bring that and help other people?

CONAN: Mm-hmm. The program would like…

Mr. WILSON: I like the idea of forced empathy. I like that.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. WILSON: Forced empathy.

CONAN: One of those oxymorons, I guess, that we can all work on. Let's see if we can get Dunk(ph), excuse me, this is Thomas(ph) on the line, Thomas with us from Sacramento.

THOMAS (Caller): Hi.

CONAN: Hi.

THOMAS: I'm actually in my car driving from Vallejo, California where I live to Sacramento. My partner of 30 years, he and I have talked about being the young old. We saw his father lived to be 90 and my grandmother lived to be 90. And we realized, as we are growing older, that we have to start looking at changing our lives, slowing down.

You can't lift the loads that you could lift when you were 40 so you're going to take something out of the motor home. You say, okay, I'm going to cut the load in half. It's just a change. And we were in RV group. We're much older than most of the guys in the group. And they look at us like you've been together 30 years and you're RVing? Their in their 40s and we tell them, listen, time flies quickly, so slow down, enjoy, take life as it comes to you.

CONAN: I think that's probably advice that people considerably younger than yourself could abide by.

THOMAS: I agree. Everyone should. Aging is a process that you just can't avoid. We said when we were first together, 30 years we're going to grow old together and we're certainly doing it, but we didn't know that some of the things that happened to you as you're growing older. I mean, your health changes, your strength changes, so you just have to appreciate it while you're young and then adjust as you age. Life is still full and beautiful. So you put one foot in front of the other one and you keep going.

CONAN: Thanks very much for the advice, Thomas. Good - and you be careful driving.

THOMAS: Thank you.

CONAN: Bye-bye.

THOMAS: Bye.

CONAN: Jason Wilson, I wanted to ask you. There was a curious sort of generational difference that you detected in some of the responses to the people who'd been through this Xtreme Aging training.

Mr. WILSON: It's true. I found that the group that was most resistant to sort of this aging sensitivity training was the baby boomers, people who are, you know, maybe my parents' age who are pushing 60 and just don't see themselves as old yet.

And I think it's - you know, I think that there's a lot of people of that generation who, you know, still see themselves having children in their 50s and jumping out of the airplanes when they're 70 and, you know, taking Viagra when they're 90.

I mean, I think that there's - I think that maybe the aging process is going to hit that generation harder than maybe other ones because I feel like they're trying to - I don't know, it's sort of- you'll stay young forever sort of, I don't know…

CONAN: I know.

Mr. WILSON: …philosophy. But they've been living by it.

Ms. GORDON: And, Jason, I would agree that in the trainings that we've done, that group is always the most resistant and they are the ones to crack jokes the quickest and to maybe not go into it wholeheartedly.

CONAN: Is that…

Ms. GORDON: I think it's out of nervousness.

CONAN: I was just about to ask. You think they're whistling past the graveyard?

Ms. GORDON: Oh, yeah. Certainly.

Mr. WILSON: For sure.

CONAN: Uh-huh. Well, that's - it's difficult. There was also, Jason, there was, you know, one of the people you interviewed said, look, you know, a few years ago, people used to say I have to go. Well, now I understand what grams is going through. And now, people are saying, well, you know, I better get to the gym. I sure don't want to be like that.

Mr. WILSON: That's right. And that was actually - the students that we're - the college students that we're talking about that were - maybe in the past, they'd say, oh, you know, I think they maybe had closer contact with a grandparent, and they were saying, well, now, I can understand why it takes grandma so long to, you know, get dressed in the morning or, you know, whatever.

Now, there's sort of this sense that they can control this, they can control things, like the gentleman that called earlier and say he now eats his wheat bran every morning. I mean, there is the sense that maybe you can sort of control this aging process, which you absolutely can't.

And, you know, some sociologists, you know, worry that this, you know, that - about that attitude, about the idea that you can control it because that there is the sense then that if you, well, you grow old and feeble, well, then it's your own fault.

CONAN: Yeah.

Mr. WILSON: And, you know, that's sort of a dangerous idea, I think.

CONAN: Yeah.

Ms. GORDON: Yeah. A doctor by the name Dr. Bill Thomas once said that we are just stuck in adulthoodest(ph) society. We urge our children to grow up very quickly and be adults. And then once we're there, we don't want to reach elderhood, and we put it off as long as we can.

And we just seemed to be stuck in this adulthood and we should really be much more accepting of the whole span of life.

CONAN: We're talking with Peg Gordon and Jason Wilson. He experienced some of the Xtreme Aging programs. She runs them. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

And let's see if we can get a caller on the line. This is Jean(ph). Jean is with us from Appleton, Wisconsin.

JEAN (Caller): Yes. I want to say that one of the things I noticed about aging in addition to not being as strong and not having as much stamina is that I'm invisible to college age and teenagers.

CONAN: Huh.

JEAN: I cross the college campus almost daily and if there's a group of five students coming at me abreast, guess who has to move aside? I do.

(Soundbite of laughter)

JEAN: And yesterday, I almost had a cyclist in my lap. He whipped around in front of the library, twisted his bike, hopped on it and he was almost into my lap when I yelled at him that I'm here.

CONAN: How old are you, if I might be so bold as to ask?

JEAN: Seventy-nine.

CONAN: Seventy-nine. What is it about your life and, you know, how your body reacts and your eyes and your ears that we don't understand?

JEAN: That's hard to answer except the fact that I am here. I'm amongst you. And I may be - I'm not terribly short, but I'm short that I just become invisible to young people.

CONAN: Hmm. I wondered…

JEAN: This is not fair. And I've had the same thing happened in the locker room. A very tall girl will just not see me.

CONAN: Hmm. Peg Gordon, is that something you have experienced with?

Ms. GORDON: Yeah. I mean, yes. I think, one, in adulthood, were still a little big egocentric, so it's one of about us. Also, we tend to ignore things that might make us a little more uncomfortable and we don't know how to deal with it, so we'd rather ignore it.

CONAN: Hmm.

Ms. GORDON: We own and operate a childcare within a long-term care facility. Our little guys can notice every - a grand friend here, the adult coming to pick him up. They don't want to see it. They don't want to be part of it. Could you go pick up my child? They're in visiting grandma so and so.

CONAN: Still whistling past the graveyard.

Ms. GORDON: It is. I think it's very much a part of just being uncomfortable and not wanting to recognize it.

CONAN: Well, Jean, thank you so much for speaking up on this program. We appreciate it.

JEAN: Thank you.

CONAN: Bye-bye. Let's see if we get one last caller in and this is James(ph). James is with us from Muskegon in Michigan.

JAMES (Caller): Hello. I'm here.

CONAN: Yes. Go ahead, please. Yeah. I'm 79 years old. I still work. My wife runs two businesses. She has this small motel and she has a beauty salon. She cuts hair everyday.

People don't realize how old we actually are because of our activities, and we are very active. But like some of the other phenomena is many of our school friends and other people are already gone. My health is good. My wife's health is good and we plan on keeping working in as long as we can.

CONAN: Well, let's all hope you both live to be 100.

(Soundbite of laughter)

JAMES: Well, I'm private pilot, but I'm still flying.

CONAN: Congratulations…

JAMES: …and I tell people, well, I intend to be still flying at the age 110.

CONAN: A hundred and ten? All right, well, I didn't mean to shortchange you there.

(Soundbite of laughter)

JAMES: Yeah. Well…

CONAN: James, thanks very much. I appreciate the time.

JAMES: Yeah. Thank you for taking my call.

CONAN: Okay. Bye-bye.

JAMES: And I'd like to thank our guests today. We were speaking with Jason Wilson, editor of The Smart Set, an independent online magazine published at Drexel University, with us today from Audio Post, Philadelphia. Appreciate your time, Jason.

Mr. WILSON: Thanks, Neal.

CONAN: And with us on the phone, Peg Gordon, intergenerational coordinator at the Macklin Intergenerational Institute and she joins us from her office in Finley, Ohio. I appreciate your being with us today.

Ms. GORDON: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.