The Psychology of the Sports Fan

NEAL CONAN, host:

This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. In Mexico, the presidential election is on hold. In Brazil, the sambas will cease. The World Cup soccer tournament opens tomorrow in Germany, and the next few weeks will be filled with anguish and ecstasy, as much of the planet obsesses about a black-and-white ball.

The rest of us will watch the Yankees and the Red Sox or NASCAR or the French Open or wonder, once again, what makes mere games so important? Sports fans have always been a deeply unreasonable and gloriously obsessed breed and an eternal mystery to those who simply don't get it.

Why do Cub fans faithfully follow a team that hasn't won the Series since 1904? Why do nine college kids paint their chests with the letters to spell out Go Irish, in November? Why do we still root for our team after our favorite player gets traded?

This hour, we'll tunnel into the dark heart of the sports fan. What is it about those colored jerseys that inspires such loyalty and superstition? Later in the hour, dream vacations, and we have an e-mail challenge for you. What's the most unusual one-of-a-kind vacation you've ever been on? We're starting with dinner with a maharajah.

The e-mail address is talk@NPR.org. Please put Vacation in the subject line. But first, what kind of fan are you: tragic, crazed, fair-weather, or just confused by it all, 800-989-8255. That's 800-989-TALK. The e-mail address is talk@NPR.org.

Joining us is Ed Hirt, an associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University. He's conducted research on the psychology of sports fans, and he's with us today from member station WFIU in Bloomington, Indiana. Nice to have you on the program.

Hello? And we're trying to get - we've just lost the line to Bloomington, Indiana, so we're trying to get Ed Hirt on the line, and let's begin instead with Richard Deitsch, who's an associate editor with Sports Illustrated, and he's with us from our more reliable bureau in New York City, at least we hope so. Ed, are you there?

Mr. RICHARD DEITSCH (Associate Editor, Sports Illustrated): It's Richard, Neal. I am here.

CONAN: Oh, excuse me, Richard. Yeah, I'm a little confused here. Thanks very much for being with us. Now, you're an associate editor at Sports Illustrated. You've covered any number of fans over the years, and you'll be following World Cup fans from the pubs of New York where it's followed about as passionately as anywhere.

Mr. DEITSCH: Yeah, it's a pretty exciting assignment, actually. New York City is such a hub of so many people from all over the world, and while in New York, certainly, the Red Sox and Yankees will always be - people will always be more interested in baseball and in football, but if you go throughout New York, and especially in some of the boroughs like Queens and the Bronx, this will be as big an event for people as any sporting event in four years.

There will people who will not work for this month. They will lie to their boss. They will take off, and they will enjoy what many consider the greatest sporting event in the world.

CONAN: Mm-hmm, and given the timing of events - the games are being played in Germany - so you're going to have to take off during the day to watch a lot of this.

Mr. DEITSCH: Yes, it will be interesting to watch people drinking at 11:55 a.m., and 2:55 p.m.

CONAN: Yeah, interesting is one way to put it. Can you compare, at all, the zealotry of different fans?

Mr. DEITSCH: I think, one the things about sports fandom that's interesting is it's about identity, and pride, and a place of belonging. And I think sports fans, depending on where they are geographically, have sort of a different notion when it comes to sports.

I lived in Buffalo for a couple of years, and the Buffalo Bills are there. It's a cold-weather city that treats its football team the way some people treat religion.

CONAN: Hmm.

Mr. DEITSCH: If on Monday, if the Bills have lost on Sunday, you would see the atmosphere in the city palpably change. There would be sort of a gray over the city. People would be a little less bouncy in their step. And conversely, if the Bills had won on Sunday, people were excited. They probably got to work earlier. They wanted to talk about the game all throughout the day.

And the psychology of sports fans is it's particularly interesting. I was in Turin this year at the Olympic Games and happened to sit with the Dutch fans during long-track speed skating, something most Americans probably do not particularly watch at home, and they were dressed from head to toe in orange, faces painted, besotted on Dutch pride.

They cheered after every lap, and it was pretty extraordinary. Even if their skaters were not going to win, and generally Dutch skaters do very well. It was just this sense of passion and something that was - really struck me, because I had - I have certainly seen this in college football and in pro football, but I had never seen that before, in speed skating. It was quite extraordinary.

CONAN: Mm-hmm. Let's bring Ed Hirt in now. I think the line has been reestablished to WFIU there, in Bloomington, Indiana. Can you hear us, Ed?

Professor ED HIRT (Associate Professor, Indiana University): Yes, I can.

CONAN: OK, well, I'm just wondering if what Richard Deitsch just had to tell, does that make sense to you, I mean, that the people cared this deeply about it? I don't think that - does your research support that?

Prof. HIRT: Absolutely. You know, he was talking a little bit about variations in fandom and across different areas, and one of the things we find is even within the same area, there's certainly a range of people in terms of how strongly identified there with their teams.

But at the extreme end, in whatever sport you're talking about, I mean - they live and die by the performance of their favorite athletes and their sports teams. And not only is their mood affected in the day after and, you know, the spring in their step versus the kind of pessimism that sort of overcasts people after important losses, but it seems to affect how they feel personally about themselves - at least in the intermediate time afterwards.

CONAN: One of the curiosities of, you know, living and dying with your team is you go to a sporting event and half the people are going to come away bitterly disappointed.

Prof. HIRT: Absolutely, yeah, and so very interesting...

CONAN: It doesn't seem to make sense, does it?

Prof. HIRT: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the questions that we certainly have asked about this is that, you know, given that fans seem to take it so hard when their team does poorly. I mean, ultimately, any team, with the exception of the ultimate champion, is going to come away disappointed at some point.

I mean, we talk right now about the NBA finals here. I mean, one of those two teams is going to come away disappointed by a finals loss, and certainly that'll be the case in the World Cup or in any sporting event. So you wonder why do people set themselves up for ultimately that feeling of disappointment.

CONAN: Mm-hmm, and Richard Deitsch, one of the great examples of that in this country has been the revulsion at the idea - for a long time in hockey, ties were allowed. Of course, they're quite common in soccer. Yet the expression in this country is, it's just like kissing your sister.

Mr. DEITSCH: Yeah, the Americans are interesting in that, you know, they're - they want - we're a results-oriented nation and in particular men. I'm sure Ed's research supports this. Men value clear-cut measurement of ability and achievement.

We don't like ties, and what makes the NHL playoffs so much fun to watch, even though certainly the ratings in this country are low, is that there are no ties in the NHL playoffs, and there is always a winner and there is always a result.

And soccer is a beautiful game, and I certainly count myself as one of the fans, but the nuance of the game, I don't think Americans particularly enjoy. I think we're a nation that loves goal-scoring, we love results, and that's why we like sports like football, a perfect television sport.

A one-one draw in the World Cup will not get any American excited unless it, of course, gets America to the next round, and then I imagine some Americans will be excited.

CONAN: Well, let's follow-up on that point, Ed Hirt. Is it a guy thing?

Prof. HIRT: Certainly there are definitely gender differences. I mean, the - yeah, the kind of intense fandom that we tend to see is certainly much more of a guy thing. And I think that he - that Richard's right. I mean, the sense that we do like to see clear-cut results. We like winners and losers. We don't like situations that are, you know, ill defined and, you know, kind of have to carry it through to the next, you know, outcome to be able to determine the winner or the victor there, because we like to be able to then take the outcome and be able to bask in the glory of the success or at least, you know, have that definitive choice.

CONAN: Well, let's get some listeners involved in the conversation, 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. We'll start with Bonnie. Bonnie calling from San Rafael in California.

BONNIE (Caller): Yes. Hi, Neal.

CONAN: Hi.

BONNIE: I just was going to mention a funny phenomenon. My father drew a nationally syndicated cartoon strip called Gil Thorpe. So we're talking about a, he was a coach.

CONAN: A high school football coach. Sure, I remember Gil Thorpe.

BONNIE: And it was amazing to me how people would get so emotionally involved, even in a fictional sports team. And as his daughter, people would beg me to tell them, you know, what was going to happen to Milford in the finals or whatever. So it's not even just the real sports teams, it's even some fictional ones where people get so passionate.

CONAN: Ed Hirt, does that surprise you that people will start rooting if Archie and Jughead are playing?

Mr. HIRT: I think competition in and of itself is such a universal theme that we can, we could take sides. I mean, how many times do we watch sporting events and even if they're teams that we don't know about, we immediately form some allegiance to one of them and have to have some attraction to one or the other in terms of who's going to have victory in that outcome.

CONAN: Yeah, I've heard ESPN Classic described as the divorce channel. I.E., the question, 'You mean you're watching a game and you already know who won?'

That doesn't surprise guys, and I think women, Bonnie, women find that puzzling.

BONNIE: I know. My husband says he has a chemical reaction when his team loses, that there's something goes on in his body that, you know, he just needs to experience and then he'll be fine. But I don't know.

CONAN: Ed Hirt, any evidence of biological reactions?

Mr. HIRT: You know, actually, there's a gentleman in Georgia that has found that testosterone levels rise and fall as a function of team's outcomes for high allegiance fans, so either - she's got something there. I think there is a biological kind of phenomenon that does occur to people.

BONNIE: Can't argue with that.

Mr. HIRT: No?

CONAN: Bonnie, thanks very much. And what team does your husband root for so desperately?

BONNIE: USC.

CONAN: USC Trojans.

BONNIE: Yes.

CONAN: I hope he's bitterly disappointed when they go to Notre Dame this year, okay?

BONNIE: Yes. Thanks for taking my call.

CONAN: Bye-bye.

And this is a phenomenon, Richard Deitsch, it goes on - The identity that people have, it's not just the college they happen to go to. People will adopt these teams sometimes. They may not be the teams of their youth.

Mr. DEITSCH: Yeah, that's indeed true, and a lot of that, of course, has to do with such player movement, the notion that a player is going to stay with a team for 10 to 15 years is long gone.

One of the interesting things I happened to read not too long ago was that, this notion that everybody wants to be a winner and sort of associate themselves with winning by association. Admissions at schools tend to go up - and this is colleges - when teams win.

And I read not too long ago - I'm sure Ed will probably find this interesting as well - that there was a spike in applications this year at George Washington University, an old school in Washington D.C., after the team made its way to the Final Four. So while the Notre Dames of the world and the USCs of the world will always draw people who, draw kids, both women and men, who want to be part of, you know, this great sporting atmosphere that are at these great and power schools. I thought it was rather interesting that George Washington University, which most people could never have told you what conference they played in or found it on a map, has now gotten a spike in applications because there are kids out there who want to be associated with this team that just went on a Cinderella run in the NCAA tournament.

CONAN: And before the emails come in, you misspoke, I'm sure you know it's George Mason University that -

Mr. DEITSCH: George Mason University. Oh my god, you're right.

CONAN: The Patriots in northern Virginia, there. Anyway, we're going to take a short break. If you'd like to join the conversation, 800-989-8255. Email us talk@npr.org.

I'm Neal Conan. We'll be back after the break. It's been TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

(Soundbite of Music

CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

It's World Cup season again, beginning tomorrow in Germany and previously mild mannered folk are becoming rabid beasts. Some of the more mild mannered are also emailing us to note that I shortchanged the Cubs by four years. They last won the World Series in 1908. So it's not quite 100 years yet.

We're exploring the strange passion of the sports fan this hour. Later on in the program, our email challenge. What's the most unusual vacation you've ever been on? Send us an email, talk@npr.org.

Our guests are Ed Hirt who is an associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University. And Richard Deitsch, an associate editor at Sports Illustrated. Of course, if you'd like to join us, call us, 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. Email is talk@npr.org.

Let's get another caller on the line. This is Fred. Fred with us from Holland, Michigan.

FRED (Caller): Yes. Thanks for having me on.

CONAN: Sure.

FRED: I wanted to ask the panelists if they had any kind of commentary about how passionate sports fans might be at different age groups. When I was younger, I used to be a diehard Minnesota Vikings fan and those guys never, ever, ever, ever won the Super Bowl, but I still continued to support them, and I've never even been to Minnesota.

But what happened was that one day, I was on my way to work - now I'm an adult - stuck in rush hour traffic. Knew I was going to get a hard time from the boss when I got there. I heard a news report on NPR, oddly enough, about the baseball players strike, and I think during the report it was mentioned that the least talented baseball player in the National League makes something like, you know, $3 million and I just started thinking about all that money being paid to the least talented, and I just kind of lost my love of sports altogether.

CONAN: If that was the report, it was inaccurate at the time. Even now, the lowest paid players make about $300,000, maybe $350,000. But anyway, they make a lot money.

Ed Hirt, does that have any basis in terms of how fans react to the sport?

Mr. HIRT: Well, I think that one of the things we get caught up in - I think his question about age is an interesting one - is that, you know, one of those things that disillusions a lot of fans is the business side of the whole thing. I mean, there's a purity in terms of many different types of sports that I think sort of makes us neglect those things. I mean, maybe the collegiate level. Maybe it's - Although I think that has changed in recent years when we start thinking about all the rules about when people can declare eligibility for pro drafts and things like that. Maybe it's down to the high school level where we think that people are really highly allied to their team and they're representing their community and that's an important part of them.

Yet Richard made the point about the days of those players that stay with teams for a dozen years, the Cal Ripkins and people like that, I mean, seems to be, you know, long gone. And I think that that is something that, you know, when those kinds of issues start smacking people in the face and reminding them that this is a business and people holding out for contracts and things like that - it does, I think, erode sometimes people's allegiance for their teams and so if you can get back to that purity of somebody happily representing their community, whether it's in a World Cup and representing their nation or, you know, a high school player that's, you know, happy to be playing there and putting their school on the map. I mean, all those kinds of things I think the purity of that aspect of sport is something that's very attractive.

CONAN: Richard Deitsch, you must have some sympathy for Fred as a Vikings fan. Of course, if you rooted for the Buffalo Bills, four times there and coming away empty.

Mr. DEITSCH: Yes, Minnesota fans were and Buffalonians were brothers in losing, I guess.

I do understand where Fred is coming from and it's - you know, I really admire sports fans today that stick with their teams, because it really is hard when you hear about guys holding out and players making extraordinary sums of money and often really not putting up the kind of statistics and the kind of effort that they should for that kind of money. Players leaving. Certainly you hear about performance enhancing substances in sports. It's tough for a sports fan, and it's really tough in particular to stick with a team that has not had success.

I really - I feel bad for fans of the Kansas City Royals and franchises like that who, quite frankly, in today's economic world, cannot compete with the Yankees and Red Sox and unless something dramatically changes, probably will never compete with them. So in some cities, it's quite tough to be a sports fan of certain professional teams. And I actually really admire those that stick with those teams and stick with the jerseys because it can be awfully tough.

FRED: Well, there is one other factor. Very quickly, I'm teaching college now, and a lot of the people that are graduating are - that we have coming out of Hope College are education students. And it just absolutely horrifies me sometimes to think that they're getting these entry level education jobs, they've worked just as hard as the athletes have, and they're not going to get paid anywhere near the money.

CONAN: Well, Fred, injustice rules. Thanks very much for the call.

Let's get another caller in on the line. And this is Chris. Chris calling from Portland, Oregon.

CHRIS (caller): Yes, thanks. And I just wanted to call in and say even though I've been a lifelong sports fan, I don't necessarily know or can't point to the reasons why exactly. But I think that sports gives us an ability to talk in a common language through region to region, place to place, without there being the derision like we have with discussions about politics and religion. It gives us a common place to talk about who you think is the best player in what era or which team is better, and we can have a common dialogue without there being, hopefully, points of disrespect.

CONAN: With possible exception of the bleachers in Yankee Stadium. Ed Hirt, does that, what Chris saying make sense to you?

Mr. HIRT: Yeah. I really like that comment, actually, Chris. Because I think that in many cases, it's interesting when you think about different topics that people can talk about and many people in psychology have talked about sports being a kind of, as you said, a universal language or a situation that kind of brings people together.

It's interesting that there is room for debate in those kinds of things. Like you said, in political kinds of discussions, you know, people can get really alienated and fractionated very quickly if somebody has a different point of view. But who's the best player? What was the best game? You know, even people who ally themselves with the same team and talking about what's the most historic moment in the franchise's history. I mean, there's room for debate there. And we can talk about that and enjoy it and people can bring up, you know, different points of view, and it can be something that builds a lot of camaraderie and people can go away okay, disagreeing.

CONAN: And there's that identity factor that everybody talks about. If you see another fan wearing North Carolina blue or whatever it happens to be, instant identification.

Mr. HIRT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, those markers are really badges of, you know, who you are and what you're projecting to other people. And so if you wear, you know, school identifying or professional gear that identifies you with a team, I mean, people know immediately and it becomes a conversation starter for people who, you know, have any interest in the sport or in that particular team to feel a bond with that person.

CONAN: Chris, thanks very much.

CHRIS: And I just have to close as a Notre Dame grad, go Irish.

CONAN: Okay. We're hardwired to root passionately, but we tend to think of this as a largely twentieth and twenty-first century phenomenon. Well, let's go BC for a minute with David Potter. He's a professor of Greek and Latin at the University of Michigan and writes a column in the Chicago Tribune's Red Eye, about how the Romans would look at modern sports. He joins us from the studios at member station, WUOM, in Ann Arbor today.

Nice to have you on the program.

Mr. DAVID POTTER (Professor, University of Michigan): Thanks very much. Pleasure to be with you.

CONAN: And is there a comparison between a World Cup fan and the fans of chariot racing in the fourth century Constantinople?

Mr. POTTER: Oh, there absolutely is. I mean, Roman chariot racing is divided up into four factions by color. The chief ones are the blues and the greens and the factions were absolutely diehard. And you really didn't want to be out in the streets after one of these chariot races or a whole day of chariot races - they'd go on from morning to night - and run into these guys, because they'd carry the conflict from inside right on outside.

CONAN: And Frank Deford, the wonderful writer for Sports Illustrated, commentator for MORNING EDITION, and writer - wonders often, why we root for laundry. In the terms of the Romans, east and west empires, these were not just sports fans.

Mr. POTTER: No, they're not just sports fans. It's really part of who you are. In fact, you'd grow up as a sports fan. It would be sort of built into you from the time you were a child. But if you're a baker in Constantinople, you're going to be a fan of the blues. If you're a silversmith, you're going to be a fan of the greens, and on it goes.

It mattered an enormous amount to people and it carried on in other areas, too. I mean, if you're living in Athens and your guys won the Olympics, that's a great moment for you and everybody else.

CONAN: Blues and greens have the most influence, you're describing. What were the distinctions? Class distinctions? Professional distinctions? Craft distinctions?

Mr. POTTER: They are largely craft distinctions, because ancient cities, of course, are divided up by area of business. All the butchers will be over here. The bakers will be down there. It made it easier for people to do their shopping. And this creates a real sort of community identities, of neighborhood identity and it carries over right into the circus.

CONAN: And in the stands during the chariot races, would the people chant, Go Blues! Go Greens!

Prof. POTTER: They would have incredibly complicated chants. I mean, it was really like what you're going to be hearing at the World Cup, very elaborate things. They'd practice them in advance. They'd have all kinds of things they would say.

And, of course, if the emperor was there - which he had to be in Constantinople, most of the time - he could hear all kinds of things. You'd start out maybe, you know, emperor, you will be victorious. But if they got mad at him, every kind of obscenity that you could chant out of the street would be coming out of one side of the stands or the other. And you'd better hope it was only coming out of one side, because if they started chanting against you, you had a big problem.

(Soundbite of laughter)

CONAN: And I understand, obviously, we have our problems with soccer hooligans and various other kinds of violence, but you've said that those kinds of fans -compared to supporters of the blues and greens - were pacifists.

Prof. POTTER: Absolutely. Amateurs compared to the mayhem that would be caused in the area around a Roman chariot race. I mean, one of the things that kept the Imperial guard busiest, I think, was probably rounding people up after the games.

CONAN: And what - you write a column on what Romans would say about modern sports - so would Caligula you think be rooting for the Italian, for the blue?

Prof. POTTER: I think Caligula probably would be rooting for whoever he thought would win, and whoever he could remember was actually there at the time. He had a little trouble with that. I mean, consistency wasn't one of his high points. I think the main thing that any of these guys would have trouble with would be the notion of something that went on for a month, because Roman sports are about instant gratification. They don't have long-range championship events. And even the Olympics, you get everything over with in one day.

CONAN: And did the Romans have sports that ended in ties?

Prof. POTTER: Roman sports could end in ties very rarely. I mean, there was a way to end a gladiatorial bout between two guys in a tie. And there's one famous occasion where two people mutually agreed that they'd had enough and they both dropped their shields, which is a sign they were mutually giving up.

But usually, the Romans insisted on something coming to a definite conclusion. And it's interesting, you know, there are no rounds or anything in ancient sports. You just go until somebody can't go any longer.

CONAN: I do have to ask, in this modern era, what are your teams? You're there in Michigan. Do you root for the Spartans?

Prof. POTTER: You must be kidding? Wolverines all the way.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Prof. POTTER: And I'm from New York and I love the Yankees.

CONAN: Okay. The classic teams, then. Thanks very much, David Potter.

Prof. POTTER: Thanks very much.

CONAN: David Potter. A professor of Greek and Latin at the University of Michigan, and he writes a column in the Chicago Tribune's RedEye about how the Romans would view modern sports. And he joined us today from the studios of member station WUOM in Ann Arbor.

And we're talking about the psychology of sports with Ed Hirt, he's an associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University, and with Richard Deitsch, an associate editor at Sports Illustrated magazine.

If you'd like to join us, our number is 800-989-8255, that's 800-989-TALK. The e-mail address is talk@npr.org. And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION, coming to you from NPR News.

And let's see if we can get another caller on the line. And why don't we go with - this is Marjorie. Marjorie calling from Dekalb, Illinois.

MARJORIE (Caller): Yes, hello. Thanks for having me on.

CONAN: Sure.

MARJORIE: I go to a small, private school in Neighborville, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago. And, of course, one of the common questions that college students ask each other is what's your major? But in the suburbs of Chicago, one of the shortly followed up questions is are you a Cubs fan or a Sox fan? And it's just as big as your identity as what you choose for your education in this part of the country, so.

CONAN: Ed Hirt, identity seems to be a lot of what this is all about.

MARJORIE: It certainly...

Prof. HIRT (Psychological and brain sciences, Indiana University): Yeah, I mean - really, I think most views of fanship are that it is an important way in which people identify themselves, you know, in terms of how they feel about themselves and how they project themselves to others.

And so, you know, the community you're raised in or the allegiance you have, I mean, really says a lot about you and really helps you pick sides - in some ways - of who the people are who you're going to, you know, be with and agree to sort of hang out with - versus people who you're going to kind of separate yourself from.

CONAN: And Marjorie, when people ask that question, what do you say?

MARJORIE: I am a blue-bleeding Cubs fan.

CONAN: Blue-bleeding Cubs fan. Okay. Good luck to you, and I apologize for my earlier mistake.

MARJORIE: Oh, thank you.

CONAN: Bye-bye.

MARJORIE: Bye.

CONAN: Richard Deitsch, though, these are telling differences. If you're a Mets fan as opposed to a Yankees fan, a Cubs fan as opposed to a White Sox fan, people know something about you.

Mr. DEITSCH: Well, certainly. I mean, generally, if you're a Yankees fan, that often speaks to your love of the establishment and money and greed and Wall Street. If you're a Met fan like myself, I feel like you're an underdog.

CONAN: And that 666 tattoo you have on your head. Go ahead, yeah.

Mr. DEITSCH: If you're a Met fan, you're an underdog, like myself - always trying to sort of strive for something a little better. But, no, you make a -it's a very good point, I think people - certainly, people in my world - there are assumptions you can make immediately by what team you root for. And in -actually, that's what I think makes the World Cup such an interesting kind of Petri dish, an experiment.

Because the World Cup is really identity and fandom on steroids. It's nationalism draped in sport. It's one of those things - I imagine like war, I suppose - that can really bring a country together. But this notion of who you root for, what jersey you wear, who you support, really is an identifier, and it really - people do perceive certain things, true or not, about you when they find out what team you root for.

CONAN: Let's talk with Vic. Vic calling from Goshen, Indiana.

VIC (Caller): Yes, thanks Neal. I appreciate being on the show.

CONAN: Sure.

VIC: I - to Mr. Hirt down at IU, I guess I'm a big Purdue fan, a Bears fan, and a Cubs fan. And I've always wondered, you know, why I root for the underdog, because, you know, every year I make a bet with a guy - he gives me 1,000 to 1 odds that the Bears will win the Super Bowl, Purdue will win the Rose Bowl, and the Cubs will win the World Series. And I hand him a dollar every year, but keep waiting for my ship to come in.

CONAN: This is a parlay? All three have to come in?

VIC: All three. I mean, that's why you get 1,000 to 1 odds, you know. But '86 was a good year, I mean, the Bears did it. In '66, Purdue got to go to the Rose Bowl. But, you know, I keep - my wife asks, you know, why do you root for underdogs all the time? But it's so wonderful when they win.

CONAN: I think you might want some math - statistically, 1,000 to 1 might be a little short there. But Ed Hirt why do people always root for the underdog?

Prof. HIRT: It's interesting. We've been doing some questioning of that same issue. I think - again, I was talking about the fact that in almost any situation, people like to take a side. And if you don't have - I mean, if you're team isn't playing, if Purdue or the, you know, Cubs, or the Bears or whoever aren't playing, it seems like we want the underdog to win just because it sort of fills that theme that we have of we like the, you know, the person who overcomes obstacles to win.

Why do people like the story of Rudy? Why do people like those situations, you know, the kid that hit all the three-pointers at the end of the game? I mean, those stories are just wonderful stories of overcoming obstacles that we all like to root for. In the NCAA Tournament, why do we -as a nation - revolve around those Cinderella stories, like the George Masons?

I mean, those are just stories that come out of the woodwork, they kind of, you know, captivate people with something new and different that, you know, we sometimes don't like the establishment to win. And I think, as Richard said, you know, as a Mets fan or somebody who likes to support the, you know -against the evil empires of the world that sort of are those favorites and things like that. It's a nice story, and it's something that I think a lot of us gravitate to.

CONAN: Vic, thanks for the call. Good luck with your bet this year.

VIC: Yeah. Hey, I hang in there. And like I said we find - I like to watch the Cubs just because they find new ways to lose, which is exciting in itself.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: When we come back from a short break we'll continue our journey into the heart and dubious brain chemistry of the sports fanatic. Plus, unusual vacations, how you can dine with a princess. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

(Soundbite of music)

CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Here are the headlines from some of the stories we're following here today at NPR News. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the most wanted terrorist in Iraq, was killed Wednesday evening when U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on his house near Baquba. The targeted airstrike was the combination of a two-week long hunt for the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq.

And the U.S. Senate has fallen three votes short of advancing a Republican measure to abolish taxes on inherited estates. Under current law, what critics call the death tax will vanish in the year 2010, but reappear just one year later. You can hear details on those stories and much more later today on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News.

Tomorrow on TALK OF THE NATION, it's Science Friday. Ira Flatow will be here to talk about something called the 25 by 25 energy plan. It's an idea being floated by a coalition of farmers and environmentalists. They hope 25 percent of our energy will come from renewables by the year 2025. Also, new evidence under the ice. Did a meteor hit Antarctica 200 million years ago? That's all tomorrow on TALK OF THE NATION science Friday.

In a few minutes, we'll get to your most unusual vacations. Send us e-mail: talk@npr.org. And read from your emails. But right now we're exploring the world of the sports fanatics. Our guests are Richard Deitsch, assistant editor at Sports Illustrated magazine, and Ed Hirt, an associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University.

And let's get some more callers on the line. Ed. Ed's calling from West Windsor in New Jersey.

ED (Caller): Yeah, Neal?

CONAN: Yeah.

ED: Hi, how are you?

CONAN: Very well, thanks.

ED: Thanks for having me on, and hi to your guests. Listen, I've been a big time sports fan for a long time, and probably the reason for that is because I always excelled in sports. Ever since I was a kid I played all the core sports, and I did exceptionally well. But to touch back on your - an earlier caller and about disillusionment. I think I've become disillusioned since then, as an adult.

And primarily, the reason being because, yes the money, but for me it goes even deeper than that. Those sports individuals or sports names that influenced me back in the day - the Muhammad Ali's, the Lou Alcindor's, the Roberto Clemente's - these guys brought a certain amount of dignity to the sport and you don't find that anymore.

For example, Michael Jordan. I don't recall Michael Jordan ever getting on Nike's back because of those sneakers costing so much when kids were killing kids just to get a pair of sneakers.

CONAN: Mm hmm.

ED: And so that has bothered me tremendously.

CONAN: Richard Deitsch, do modern sports heroes have a feat of - no pun intended - clay?

Mr. DEITSCH: I think it's much harder, you know - most people today, in terms of the ideals of sportsmen, usually their first loyalty - I hate to say it - is towards the dollar. It's towards the color green than anything else. So, you know, there are good athletes out there, and there are guys who do a lot of things in the community and who are very charitable. And those acts are probably underreported.

But we live in such a world now - a 24/7 world - a world where there are Internet bloggers around every corner. And I think the peccadilloes of athletes, we see them much more. It's a different time, so it's a lot harder to find character. I think it's out there, but it's just harder. And I certainly understand what the caller is talking about. You really sometimes have to search long and hard to find positive news in the sports world.

ED: It's almost ironic, too, because you would think in this day and age it would be easier to come out and speak out. And, in fact, what's happened is that, you know, people get comfortable. And we, the fans - it's sad to say -but we've become ignorant to that, and so what we value them for is, you know, how marketable they are. Look how much A-rod's making. You know what I mean? And that's not - it's almost like putting blinders on.

CONAN: Yeah, well, you do remember, though - Babe Ruth was once asked did he think it was right that he was making more money than the President of the United States, Herbert Hoover. And he replied, I had a better year.

(Soundbite of laughter)

ED: All right.

CONAN: Ed, thanks very much for the call.

ED: My pleasure.

CONAN: Bye-bye. Let's talk with Derek(ph). Derek's calling from Ashland in Oregon.

DEREK (Caller): Hey, thanks for taking my call.

CONAN: Sure.

DEREK. You guys were talking about fandom and rooting for your team. And my team's out of the NBA playoffs, and, in fact, they didn't have a winning season, so I was, found myself - and I always find myself - rooting against the team I hate. I mean, I'm in Oregon. I'm a Laker-hater. And I just wondered if you had any comment on my disdain.

CONAN: I don't know. Ed Hirt, any research on the anti-fan?

Prof. HIRT: Oh, absolutely. I think that a lot of times, I mean - we talk about here at IU - that our favorite teams are Indiana and whoever's playing Purdue. And so, I mean, it seems like there's a reverse psychology in sports that, you know, you root against your rival, too. I mean, that's sort of part of being part of your team.

I think when people ask for people to draw those lines between whether they're a Cubs fan or a White Sox fan, or a Mets fan versus a Yankees fan - there's a sense that you can't be both, right?

CONAN: Mm hmm.

Prof. HIRT: I mean, you have to be one or the other. And you tend to sort of root against the other one, because, you know, obviously relative to them, you aren't going to do well. So I think it's a pretty common thing for us to sort of, then - once our team is out - to sort of root against the team that knocked our team off or the rival of that team, because we don't them to success and then be able to shove it in our noses, you know, later on.

CONAN: Mm hmm.

Mr. DEITSCH: And, Neal and Ed, I would just add that the sports world may be the last place on the planet where hatred is not only acceptable, but often part of the group dynamic. I mean, it, you know, parents may get mad at their children by saying I hate you, but there will be a father who will be proud of his kid for saying I hate the Yankees or I hate the Red Sox.

CONAN: Mm hmm.

DEREK: Let me just add, before I go, that I - as much as I love watching NBA basketball, it is hard to see it slip into the over-corporatized world that David Stern has turned it into. And if you guys get a chance to follow-up on that, I really appreciate it. Thank you.

CONAN: All right. Derrick, thanks very much. Appreciate the phone call. Let's go with Sammy. Sammy calling from Roanoke, in Virginia.

SAMMY (Caller): Hi, yeah. I was calling back about, you were talking about the FIFA World Cup.

CONAN: Mm hmm.

SAMMY: And, you know, my family emigrated here from Guatemala in the late '70s...

CONAN: I have to confess, I don't know. Is Guatemala in the World Cup this year?

SAMMY: Well, that's the thing, Neal, that they never make it to the World Cup. And, uh, so whenever that happens, my family just starts rooting for the next Central American country. And as soon as there's no more Central American country to root for, because Asia don't make it too far, either...

CONAN: Right.

SAMMY: ...I think this year we've only got Costa Rica in there - we go for the next Latin American country.

CONAN: Might be Mexico.

SAMMY: Yeah. Yeah.

CONAN: And, I find, I have to admit, Richard Deitsch, the same thing. My team is in the American league. If they get knocked out in the play-offs, I'm going to root for the other American league team.

Mr. DEITSCH: Well, if I could just mention to Sammy, I should throw a cheap plug, he could follow all the World Cup coverage on SI.com. But, that does - I mean, it, you know, it does speak to that. And I think soccer in this World Cup is, you see that very often - where Latin American fans, if their country is not in it, they will root for a Latin American team. Or a South Americans, whether, you know, if Argentina gets eliminated, they may root for Brazil. It's very interesting.

What this World Cup will show is, when the United States is eliminated, and ultimately they will be eliminated before the finals, who will Americans jump on? Will they jump on any team? Will they jump on Brazil, because we certainly see them in commercials, and players like Ronaldinho and Ronaldo are quite well known. So it does speak to an interesting thing as to where to go when your team or your country are no longer competing in an event.

Prof. HIRT: Yeah...

CONAN: Well, in a World Cup terms, Americans are likely to turn their attentions to Little E or Jeff Gordon or somebody. They may just stop watching.

You were about to say, Ed. I'm sorry I interrupted.

Prof. HIRT: Yeah, I think sometimes we sort of think about ourselves at a larger level, then. Like you saying, Latin America. That's our, you know, identity. Guatemala's part of that, so we can jump on that. I think in basketball, one of the things we find here is that a lot of times when our team is eliminated, people jump to the same conference. Right? You identify. How are Big Ten teams doing in the NCAA Tournament?

CONAN: Mm hmm.

Prof. HIRT: And that becomes the sort of subordinate category that you belong to. So the United States, who do we jump to? I mean, you're right. I mean, is Mexico close enough that it's North America? Do we think about ourselves as North Americans? But you might, within different continents or within different communities where that's an important part of how people think of you and how you conceptualize yourself.

CONAN: Well Sammy, go Costa Rica.

SAMMY: Yeah, right! Thanks a lot.

CONAN: We'll end with this e-mail we got from Steven(ph) in Tallahassee. "This year, I have continued a troubling tradition. I quit my job every four years so I can go to the World Cup. My last day at my current job is 16 June. I leave for Germany 17 June. I intend to go to South Africa for the 2010 World Cup, but I'll need a job between now and then, so please don't tell any of my future employers what I'm up to."

Richard Deitsch, thanks so much for being with us today.

Mr. DEITSCH: Thank you very much.

CONAN: Richard Deitsch, an associate editor at Sports Illustrated joined us from our bureau in New York. Ed Hirt, we appreciate your time as well.

Prof. HIRT: Thank you.

CONAN: Ed Hirt is an associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Indiana University. And he joined us today from the studios of member station of WFIU.

Dream vacations, coming up. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.