Radio Lab: Into the Brain of a Liar
We all lie — once a day or so, according to most studies. But usually we tell little lies, like "your new haircut looks great!" And most of us can control when we lie or what we lie about. But some people lie repeatedly and compulsively, about things both big and small.
In 2005, a study published in The British Journal of Psychiatry provided the first evidence of structural differences in the brains of people with a history of persistent lying. The study was led by Yaling Yang, a doctoral student in psychology at the University of Southern California, and Adrian Raine, an expert on antisocial disorders who is now at University of Pennsylvania.
They expected to see some kind of deficit in the brains of these liars, Yang says. But surprisingly, the liars in their study actually had a surplus — specifically, they had more connections in the part of their brains responsible for complex thinking.
Finding Liars
The label "pathological liar" gets used in a variety of ways, and there's no standard psychological definition or test to measure if someone is a pathological liar. So Yang and her team chose to focus their study on people who have a history of repeated lying and seem not to be able to control their lying (hereafter called simply, "liars"). The researchers began by gathering volunteers from temporary employment agencies in the Los Angeles area. The idea was that liars would be over-represented at these agencies; a history of repeated lying would likely make it hard to keep a steady job.
Then they ran 108 volunteers through extensive interviews and a battery of tests that measure patterns of deception. In the end, the team found 12 people who showed strong evidence of repeated and compulsive lying. For control groups, they identified 16 people who had antisocial tendencies but no history of lying and 21 people with no history of either lying or antisocial behavior.
Into the Scanner
Yang and her colleagues put all 49 people, both the liars and the non-liars, into a magnetic resonance imaging scanner and took pictures of their prefrontal cortex. They chose to focus on this area of the brain because previous studies had shown that the prefrontal cortex plays a role in both lying and in antisocial behaviors.
If you could look into this part of the brain, which sits right behind your forehead, you would see two kinds of matter: gray and white. Gray matter is the groups of brain cells that process information. Most neuroscience studies focus on gray matter. But nearly half the brain is composed of connective tissues that carry electrical signals from one group of neurons to another. This is white matter. Roughly, gray matter is where the processing happens, and white matter connects different parts of the brain, helping us to bring different ideas together.
The liars in Yang's study had on average 22 percent to 26 percent more white matter in their prefrontal cortex than both the normal and antisocial controls.
More Connections
Yang speculates that the increase in white matter means that people who lie repeatedly and compulsively are better at making connections between thoughts that aren't connected in reality — like, say, "me" and "fighter pilot." Consequently, while some of us struggle to come up with reasons why we were late for work, or can't go out with someone we don't really like, Yang's liars impulsively serve up a heaping helping of excuses and stories, and fast.
"By having more connections," Yang says, "you can jump from one idea to another and you can come up with more random stories and ideas."
Admittedly, this study is just a first step. It doesn't show that more white matter in the prefrontal cortex accounts for all lying or that it's the only part of the brain involved. And the study does not establish whether the brain differences lead to lying or whether repeated lying somehow "exercises" connections in the brain. While the study was carefully designed to exclude differences that could be due to age, ethnicity, IQ, brain injury or substance abuse, the small sample size means the results need to be replicated. More research is needed to define what behaviors count as pathological lying and to establish the mechanism behind those behaviors.
A Promising Beginning
Still, the study provides a promising starting point for exploring the relationship between lying and white matter in the brain. For example, brain scans of autistic people, who have difficulty telling lies, show the exact opposite profile of Yang's liars: They have less white matter than other people. In autistic children, white matter doesn't develop at a normal rate.
"For normal people, from age 2 to age 10 there is a big jump in their white matter," says Yang, "and actually that's the same age that they develop the skill to lie."
Yang has good reason to be thinking about the development of young brains: She's a new mom. She's on maternity leave keeping a close eye on her daughter, Zoe.
"Every step, every little noise she makes, it makes me wonder what's going on in her brain," Yang says. And because she's a scientist, as well as a mother, she does more than just wonder. "It's too early to scan her brain," Yang says, "but eventually I will do it."
Soren Wheeler contributed to this report.
9(MDAyNzUwMDI2MDEyNTA3MTU5NzcyNTQyNA004))
- USC: Liars' Brains Wired Differently
- 'British Journal of Psychiatry' Paper, co-authored by Yaling Yang and Adrian Raine: Prefrontal White Matter in Pathological Liars
- 'British Journal of Psychiatry' Commentary: Sean Spence, a professor of psychiatry at University of Sheffield, shares his view of the study
STEVE INSKEEP, host:
It's MORNING EDITION from NPR News. Good morning. I'm Steve Inskeep.
RENEE MONTAGNE, host:
And I'm Renee Montagne.
INSKEEP: Renee, truth or dare.
MONTAGNE: Truth.
INSKEEP: When was the last time that you've told a lie?
MONTAGNE: You mean, like, a little white lie?
INSKEEP: No, I mean, a lie, like, really deceiving somebody?
MONTAGNE: Well, Steve, I don't know what you're insinuating but I can't say that I make a habit of it.
INSKEEP: Well, our next story is an investigation into the minds of people who do make a habit of lying, and it comes from NPR's science correspondent Robert Krulwich, who's been working in a space he calls Radio Lab.
Robert Krulwich, what is Radio Lab?
ROBERT KRULWICH: Well, Radio Lab is a place where we explore big ideas that make us rethink ourselves and the world around us.
MONTAGNE: And you're not alone in your radio lab, Robert.
JAB ABUMRAD: Nope, he's with me.
KRULWICH: This is Jab Abumrad. He's the creator of the show, co-host. And together we have been looking at liars.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Not ordinary liars. Like, not the you and me kinda liars but…
KRULWICH: Right, right. There are people who lie and lie and lie. Yeah.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Exactly.
Ms. YALING YANG (Researcher, University of Southern California): They just can't help it. They feel this impulse that they cannot control.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Yeah, the lie just tumbles out before they can stop.
KRULWICH: And this is who?
Mr. ABUMRAD: Oh, that's Yaling Yang. She's a researcher at the University of Southern California.
Ms. YANG: In the Department of Psychology Neuroscience
Mr. ABUMRAD: Now, Robert, here's what Yaling did. She gathered together a group of subjects, put them through a series of interviews, series of tests, and was able to identify a subset that seemed to lie more often, more persistently than average. And so she wondered, is it just their personalities, their upbringing or might there be something in their heads, in their brains, that could explain this line?
Ms. YANG: Basically we put people in the EMI scanner and then we scanned their brains.
Mr. ABUMRAD: She scanned all her subjects - the liars and the non-liars - no one knew which group they were in. And she was looking at a particular part of their brain called…
Ms. YANG: The prefrontal cortex. This is the part of the brain that processes information.
Mr. ABUMRAD: This is where the real thinking happens.
Ms. YANG: Making decisions and moral judgment, for example.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Now, if you zoom in to that place, just behind your forehead, what you'll see are two kinds of brain tissue. You've got gray matter and then you've got white matter.
KRULWICH: I've heard of gray matter.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Yes. Well, we think of the brain as being gray. But actually it's two things: it's gray and white. The gray stuff, you can kind of think of it as, like, the computer processor part.
KRULWICH: Yeah.
Mr. ABUMRAD: It's these little clumps of neurons that process information. Like computer chips. That's the gray. Whereas the white…
Ms. YANG: The white matter is, like, the connections between all these computers.
Mr. ABUMRAD: The white matter, in other words, is what moves the thoughts around.
KRULWICH: Gray is where the thinking happens and then white is when you move the thought from here to there.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Exactly.
Ms. YANG: Yes. They transfer information from one end to the other.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Okay. So you've got your gray, you've got your white. What Yaling thought she would see when she looked into the brains of people who lie a lot…
Ms. YANG: I thought we would see a reduction.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Just some piece of it not there.
Ms. YANG: Yeah, they're missing something.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Physically she thought she would find less gray stuff, less of the thinking stuff.
KRULWICH: Why would… Why?
Mr. ABUMRAD: 'Cause that's what she's seen in other mental disorders that are kind of like this. And if you think about it in a really simplistic level, the gray is where you think your thoughts and it's also, among other things, where you crunch your moral calculation. And liars, she figured, have trouble in this department so maybe they have less gray. That was her notion.
KRULWICH: Okay.
Mr. ABUMRAD: But when she got the pictures back, what she saw was…
Ms. YANG: Such a great increase. It's…
Mr. ABUMRAD: More, and not the gray.
Ms. YANG: More white matter.
Mr. ABUMRAD: More white stuff, a lot more.
Ms. YANG: Twenty-five percent. Like, a quarter.
Mr. ABUMRAD: So they have 25 percent more connections in their heads than non-liars?
Ms. YANG: Yes.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Before we get to what that means, what were you thinking when you saw this?
Ms. YANG: I thought this was something.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Something.
Ms. YANG: Something.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Something. Here's her idea so far. Ready?
KRULWICH: Yes.
Mr. ABUMRAD: She thinks that these extra connections play a crucial role in a kind of in the moment storytelling. That's essentially what lying is, coming up with a story on the fly. Let me give you an example, okay?
KRULWICH: Um-hum.
Mr. ABUMRAD: You're leaving work, you're walking down the hall and you go into the elevator and an annoying, but nice, coworker corners you…
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Oh, hey, Sally.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Corners you in the elevator.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Hey.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Asks you out.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Um, you know, I've been meaning to ask: you maybe wanna go out with me on Friday?
Mr. ABUMRAD: So there you are. Questions dangling in the air. For most of us right at that moment inside our head and our brains, we're thinking, oh shoot. Say you're busy, say you're busy, say you're busy.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Busy with what?
Mr. ABUMRAD: What are you busy with? Think of something. Think, think. Reaching out into the void trying to form a connection with some idea that can help you come up with some excuse.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I could say…
Mr. ABUMRAD: You know, I could say…
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Excuse me, I have a, shoot…I can't think of anything.
Mr. ABUMRAD: And really what you need to do at this moment is just take a bunch of disparate thoughts on different sides of your brain, like, me, tonight, teeth, dentist, and connect them all together.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I'm having some late-night dental work.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Oh, okay.
Mr. ABUMRAD: We can all do it, given enough time. But for these people who lie a lot, she thinks that because they have so many more of these connections to begin with, they get there faster.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: My mom is visiting that night; I'm meeting a friend for sushi; I am performing in a circus; Friday night book club; I have hockey practice; yoga; I have to polish the silver; I've got chemo…
Ms. YANG: The more connections…
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: …sorry, bee keeping…
Ms. YANG: The faster the speed of the processing. You can jump from one idea to another and you can come up with more random stories.
Mr. ABUMRAD: She thinks that in the brains of most of us we have trouble making those connections. We have…
KRULWICH: Would you have trouble if I said to you, like, come on, let's hang out on Friday night. Would you not be able to come up with a wowzer?
Mr. ABUMRAD: I would say, well, yeah, that…
KRULWICH: I have to count straws. See, Thursday night is straw counting, we always… We have about 316 straws so far and I'm only doing ones with the little red circles on them. So that's Thursday night, sorry.
(Soundbite of laughter)
KRULWICH: I don't know where it came from. It just happened.
Mr. ABUMRAD: There you go, see? You've got extra white matter, perhaps.
KRULWICH: So she's saying this is a cause of lying or an effect of lying. Like…
Mr. ABUMRAD: Well, she's not sure, and this is a big debate. What she can say is that children, as they grow…
Ms. YANG: Yeah, from age two to age ten, there is a big jump in their white matter. And that's actually the same age that they develop the skill to lie.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Yaling has a good reason to be thinking about how brains develop, because she's a new mom. Is this your first kid?
Ms. YANG: Yes, it's my first one.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Boy or girl?
Ms. YANG: A girl.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Doesn't make you wonder a little bit about what's going on inside her head?
Ms. YANG: Oh yes. I wonder about that all the time. It's still too early to scan her brain. But eventually I will do it.
Mr. ABUMRAD: Are you serious?
Ms. YANG: Yes.
KRULWICH: This is a moral to this. Never, if you're a little baby, have a social psychiatrist as a mother who would (unintelligible) very dangerous thing. Anyway, if she does this then maybe we'll know a little bit more about the nature and nurture of liars.
MONTAGNE: That's Robert Krulwich.
KRULWICH: She's not lying.
MONTAGNE: And Jab Abumrad.
Mr. ABUMRAD: And that's the truth.
INSKEEP: And they are part of Radio Lab, a production of WNYC.
MONTAGNE: For nothing but the truth on lying and the world of Radio Lab, go to NPR.org.
This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Renee Montagne.
INSKEEP: And I'm Steve Inskeep. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.











