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Q&A: Video games, artificial intelligence and podcast recommendations with the co-hosts of Hidden Levels
Calling all video game fans, leader board heroes and pop culture lovers. Hidden Levels, a new eight-part series from WBUR's Endless Thread and 99% Invisible, explores how video games left the arcade, the keyboard and the couch, and reshaped the world beyond. Follow both shows to be the first to hear new episodes when they drop on Tuesdays and Fridays this October. And stay tuned for two bonus "side quests," exclusively available in the Endless Thread feed.
Ben Brock Johnson, creator of Hidden Levels and co-host of Endless Thread, took to his keyboard with Roman Mars, co-host of Hidden Levels and creator of 99% Invisible, to answer questions from the r/podcasts community. Read on to learn more about them, the state of the podcast industry and, of course, their video game recommendations.
Some questions and answers have been lightly edited for length and clarity.
How did you decide to collaborate on Hidden Levels?
Roman Mars (RM): Ben had the idea and pitched us. We've featured Endless Thread a couple times, and I'm a fan of their work. Video games are a bit of a blind spot for us, so it made a ton of sense to collaborate.
Ben Brock Johnson (BBJ): I had been thinking about a series like this for a while, and brought the idea to Roman and the excellent 99% Invisible team, and they'd been thinking about doing something similar. So it felt like kismet!
Do you play video games? Any recent favorites?
RM: I play a lot of tower defense games, like the Kingdom Rush series, when I listen to audio for work. I have a Switch in the house, and we'll all play Just Dance together at holidays and such. I like to "box" on Supernatural. I don't do any immersive narrative games, but I do admire the craft.
BBJ: Recent favorites for me include Helldivers 2, Diablo IV, some of the TMNT revamp games and Generation Zero.
How do you think the widespread adoption of artificial intelligence for content creation will affect the viability of podcasts and games?
RM: I've literally never used [artificial intelligence] in any way, so I don't have a great sense of its use. When AI videos or images pop up on social media, I'm creeped out and underwhelmed.
BBJ: This is a huge question. Endless Thread has recently done episodes about people using AI in their human relationships (of all kinds). We also did a whole series on AI and chatbots right before ChatGPT launched, funnily enough. After doing those episodes, I think a few things:
- AI is here, and we can't ignore it.
- But that doesn't mean we have to accept the ways that powerful people and companies want us to accept AI. It should not be used to consolidate power and money, but instead, as a tool to help people who don't have tons of money and power. It will take leaning into these tools to make them useful to vulnerable people and make the world better.
- The mountain of slop is coming, and there's gonna be a huge generational divide between people like me, who want to be sure I'm dealing with content made by real people, and generations that were raised on the slop and don't really draw that line. It's going to be very interesting to watch that play out.
The podcast industry seems to be moving away from narrative podcasts and toward celebrity-hosted interview shows. What are your thoughts? Is there hope for good stories that take time and effort?
RM: It bums me out. I think all forms can exist and thrive, but the turn away from documentary and journalism is disheartening. As a show, 99% Invisible makes money, so I hope that's enough to keep us going. The fear is being in an ecosystem where profitability isn't even enough.
BBJ: I have many, many thoughts. I'm not gate-keepy about the term "podcasts." And I think the podcast-as-an-extra-platform-for-celebrity-voice trend isn't bad on its own. But I think that money and market forces are always where the problem is. It's a pretty familiar cycle: Technology becomes this powerful democratizing force; a thousand weird and wild ideas bloom; real money starts getting made; the "money" realizes it doesn't want to support the weird or the altruistic stuff, and wants to make more money; the middle disappears; and what's left is the biggest shows and the people doing it for the love of the game – not for the money.
At the end of the day, I think artists are gonna make art. And I think that's good. The more people are able to discover the strange and unique and creative and useful stuff, that's also good. As long as people want to make cool shit, there is always hope!
What's your favorite episode ever recorded?
RM: I have a hard time with this because I forget them so fast, so in that spirit, I think our recent The New Jungle episode of 99% Invisible is as good an audio documentary ever made. It explains so many complex systems in the United States simultaneously and in a completely riveting way.
BBJ: Oh boy, that's a tough one. I've got a lot of favorites. I'd say Hidden Levels, but that's an easy answer, I suppose. I really loved making the episode about Krakatoa, and also the episode about a meteorite that native peoples in Greenland used to make tools.
What about episodes you'd recommend to new listeners?
BBJ: So many. Great Glitter Mystery, We Want Plates and a lot of others from the way-back catalogue, for sure. Recent favorites also include The American Lean, Artist Known, War and Pizza, When the Government Wants Your Socials, Toyota Hilux Trucks, Adrian and the Whale, The Stream Is Up and Welcome to the Jam.
What are your recommendations for lesser-known podcasts? Bonus points for any shows that are pushing the boundaries of the medium.
RM: I'm very into Life of the Record right now. [Dan Nordheim] constructs oral histories of many of my favorite albums. Not "lesser known," but Blank Check is the podcast where I log the most hours by far.
BBJ: Right now, I'm loving some weird fiction stuff – Imaginary Advice and Fearful Symmetry. They feel pretty out there in a fun and exploratory way. I also recently listened to Wild Boys, and really liked it. The podcasts I recommend to people whenever they ask are Welcome to LA, Heavyweight and 99% Invisible!
With federal funding cuts to public media, what does the future look like for Endless Thread? More collaborations like this one?
BBJ: I appreciate this question a lot. WBUR is doing okay despite the challenges, but it's absolutely true that it is a hard time for radio stations to stick with their newer experiments in reaching younger and more diverse audiences. The good news is that I'm a strong believer in WBUR's leadership, and I think we're doing some smart things to make up the difference. That includes building out special membership programs for our podcasts, including Endless Thread – so, there's news on that coming! Stay tuned. I think, for now, Endless Thread is in good shape, and we'll try and collaborate more and more with shows that are similar to our own and share our values and storytelling styles.
Who are your favorite producers on staff?
RM: HA!
BBJ: I'm not touching this with a 50-foot shotgun mic stand.