The Taylor Swift and Beyonce economy

Taylor Swift and Beyoncé have generated some $10 billion for the U.S. this year.

What does the staggering rise of these two women say about our economy — and about us?

Today, On Point: The Taylor Swift and Beyonce economy.

Misty Heggeness, associate professor of economics at the University of Kansas. Author of the forthcoming book “Swiftynomics: Women in Today’s Economy,” due out in 2025.

Shar Jossell, journalist and writer. She focuses on arts and entertainment reporting at the intersections of gender, politics, race and pop culture.

Abbey Eilermann, owner of the online shop Daily Disco, which makes custom embroidered jean jackets for Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour.

Abby Meyer, marketing director at Donutology, a Kansas City donut shop that created Taylor Swift-themed donuts.

Part I

MEGHNA CHAKRABARTI: Right now, there are two women who need no introduction, not even their last names: Taylor and Beyoncé. Together, their concert tours generated a massive $10 billion of economic activity in and for U.S. cities this year. Money is no object for Swifties and members of the Beyhive.

The collective joy of the concerts is worth spending big for them on plane tickets, hotel rooms, restaurants, t-shirts and posters, and, of course, bedazzled cowboy hats and friendship bracelet beads.

UNNAMED TAYLOR SWIFT FAN 1 [Tape]: This is all Amazon Couture.

UNNAMED TAYLOR SWIFT FAN 2: I got the L.A. poster that's specific to L.A.

UNNAMED BEYONCE FAN 1: Since Beyoncé personally requested me to wear chrome and silver — no, I'm just kidding. She requested silver for her birthday. It's Virgo season.

UNNAMED TAYLOR SWIFT FAN 3: Let's go shopping together to get supplies to make friendship bracelets for the Eras Tour.

UNNAMED TAYLOR SWIFT FANS: (SINGING) I'm drunk in the back of the car and I cried like a baby coming home from the bar.

UNNAMED BEYONCE FAN 2: I made this outfit like you said, periodt. These are my friends I just made. They got the energy, honey.

UNNAMED BEYONCE FAN 3: We did pay a good $1000 to sit in floor seats and like I said she was in town so it was easier but I would have traveled to see her. All the money's worth it.

CHAKRABARTI: In other words: It's a Taylor Swift and Beyoncé economy, and we're just living in it. Why, and how, have these two women become some of the biggest non-governmental stimulus forces in the United States?

Misty Heggeness joins us today. She's an associate professor in the School of Public Affairs and Administration at the University of Kansas, and she's also working on a book slated to come out in 2025 called Swiftynomics: Women in Today's Economy. Misty, welcome to On Point.

MISTY HEGGENESS: Meghna, I'm so excited to be here talking to you about this.

CHAKRABARTI: Why? Why are you so excited?

HEGGENESS: Well, I just think that during the pandemic, a lot of us went through a lot of hard times and we're all just out here right now looking for joy and Taylor and Beyoncé are more than happy to give it to us.

CHAKRABARTI: Have you been to a concert?

HEGGENESS: (GASPS) Ah yes! Both.

CHAKRABARTI: Both!

HEGGENESS: Oh yes, of course.

CHAKRABARTI: And you're in Kansas, right? Were they both in Kansas?

HEGGENESS: Yeah. So I went to the first night Kansas City tour for Taylor Swift and I also went to Beyoncé's concert, which was her last U.S. concert.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay, so let's go through some of the numbers a bit before we dig into sort of the how's and why's that this conversation is going to be about.

First of all, regarding Taylor Swift, the Eras Tour is not over yet, but already this year she's — the concerts have grossed, just the concerts themselves, over $1 billion. That makes hers the most successful concert tour in history, right?

HEGGENESS: Yeah, of all time. Guinness Book of World Records.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. And so Taylor Swift and Beyoncé — Beyoncé is the next one on that list. Number three is Bruce Springsteen! (LAUGHS) So give us a sense of comparison in terms of how large the Taylor Swift and Beyoncé tours are in comparison — sorry, I've said that twice — but to other really popular, really successful tours of the past.

HEGGENESS: Yeah. I'll give you an example, or I'll just talk about it within maybe a little bit of a different context. But if you think about this past Super Bowl that we had in 2023 was in Glendale. Taylor Swift started her tour in Glendale, Arizona. And these concerts are stadium concerts and they all get sold out. And so you can think about one concert being the equivalent of a Super Bowl event in terms of the generating of revenue within local economies, et cetera.

And Taylor is doing two or three of these concerts in one location at a time. In L.A., she did six. So just in terms of magnitude, we often think that the Super Bowl is like this huge U.S. event and here you have a megastar who is replicating that, essentially exponentially --

CHAKRABARTI: Every weekend, practically.

HEGGENESS: Exactly, yeah. So it's pretty amazing.

CHAKRABARTI: I'm seeing that on average, more than 72,000 people are at every Taylor Swift show.

HEGGENESS: Yeah, she's packing the stadiums.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. And then, so let's talk a little bit about Beyoncé. To be honest, her concert grossing is not at the billion dollar level, but she is still the second-highest grossing artist of the year. And we're seeing the same sort of surge in people going to those concerts, selling out, spending money with the Beyoncé tour, right?

HEGGENESS: Yeah, definitely. So the way I like to think about the Beyoncé tour is, so Beyoncé started her tour in Sweden and essentially, the economists over there claim that she is one of the reasons that there was increased inflation last May. It went up 0.3% percent from April to May. And most of that was due to this unusually high demand for hotels and other types of services and tourism.

So Beyoncé started out with a bang and here in the U.S. she's been going around city to city, touring, and you're seeing, people are calling it a Beyoncé effect. Clothes, retail stores are selling out. In Chicago, there was this increase of anywhere between 5 to 20% in hotel and travel, shopping, restaurants, beauty services. So you really do see fans of these megastars really coming out and whipping out their purses and wallets. They are there for the full experience and they're willing to pay for it.

CHAKRABARTI: Wow. Okay. Now you said that Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour has wrapped up?

HEGGENESS: Yeah.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. Just wanted to double check on that because Taylor Swift's Eras Tour is still going on and I'm just seeing that it could, the tour itself could gross another $1 billion before it's over here in the United States, almost the same amount worldwide. So she could come out the other end as having a tour that grossed $4 billion if not more for the tour itself.

So obviously, those two women are wildly financially successful. But really, we want to talk about what you just hinted at earlier, and that's the economic impact at the cities that they are gifting their fans with visits for. Do you have any information about the effect, let's say, Taylor Swift has had in Kansas?

HEGGENESS: Yeah the estimated — so Kansas City estimates it's about $47.8 million of direct economic impact because of the Eras Tour.

CHAKRABARTI: Wait, say that number again?

HEGGENESS: $47.8 million.

CHAKRABARTI: Wow, just for, in Kansas City?

HEGGENESS: Mm-hmm.

CHAKRABARTI: And how does that compare to other kinds of stimulus or the regular revenue that the city generates from normal city operations?

HEGGENESS: Well. (LAUGHS) This is a lot more!

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS)

HEGGENESS: And it's not just Kansas City. Cincinnati estimated that just in terms of hotel benefits, there was like $7.9 million gross revenue related to hotels. In L.A., there --  she did six shows in L.A. and there's an estimated $320 million boost to the local economy. So these are big numbers. And I think local governments, really in some of these cities, they really do appreciate this because it is way bigger than a lot of the other activities that they have going on that generate revenue for them.

And I think you see them showing their appreciation by, renaming streets and claiming, giving Taylor, there's — I can't remember what city it was but there is a city that made Taylor mayor for a day.

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS) I'm sure she needs that responsibility even just for a day. I have to say when you laughed a little at my question of how does it compare to normal city revenues, the laugh was in and of itself the perfect answer, right? Because we're not even talking about things on a similar scale here.

HEGGENESS: (LAUGHS) That's right.

CHAKRABARTI: What kinds of things — we talked about hotel and foods, but what are the other things that for both these women's concerts that people are just willing to spend money on that you know of?

HEGGENESS: So a couple of things. I'll say merchandise and clothing. So Beyoncé, who's a Virgo, has everybody showing up to her concerts all shiny. And you've got these Etsy stores and local stores that are trying to — that have anything silver are like selling out of it. You've got the Taylor Swift friendship bracelets. And so there was a story about Michael's craft stores in L.A., like running out of beads.

People aren't just going to these concerts to sit down and hear the music and have that experience. They want to live the experience. And part of that living it is dressing up for it, getting in the mood and, not only individually, but like with your friends and family. And so it's a whole ripple effect in so many levels of our lives.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah. So it's not just buying an album and a t-shirt and a poster and smacking the poster on your wall when you go home. It's about spending money that makes you feel a bigger part of the community event, right? That these concerts are.

HEGGENESS: Yeah.

CHAKRABARTI: Now, your book is focused on the idea of economic power of women today. And obviously, Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are people's Exhibit A --

HEGGENESS: Queens, yeah.

CHAKRABARTI: But just give me a quick description of why you think these two women in particular, what are they touching on that is making them, translating into so much economic power?

HEGGENESS: Yeah. I think what they're touching on is their own authenticity. And it's that authenticity combined with acknowledging — they exist in a very misogynistic industry. And yet somehow they've been able to rewrite the rules. And I think part of that is due to them being in touch with themselves and their own authenticity. And then also knowing and understanding that they have a fan base who has a similar level of experiences and authenticity and then building and establishing that relationship.

And I think that has just given them so much power and it's allowed them to have experiences within their own industry that really pushed them through the roof and help them excel in ways that others haven't been able to in the past.

Part II

CHAKRABARTI: You heard our guest Misty Heggeness a little earlier saying Beyoncé is credited with having caused a little bit of inflation in the entire country of Sweden. Taylor Swift, the Philadelphia Fed, actually credits Taylor Swift with saving the hotel industry there. But even with all that evidence, if you still don't believe that these two women — and specifically Taylor Swift — transformed local businesses on her concert tour, all right. Fine. It's okay. You can not be a believer. But just listen to this:

ABBEY EILERMANN: Taylor saved my business this year. My name is Abbey Eilermann. I own Daily Disco. We do custom chain stitch embroidery and we specialize in denim jackets.

I made this to wear myself to the Eras Tour concert. It is a 20-inch portrait of Taylor's face. And then it says "The Eras Tour." But then I added glitter felt because I wanted to embrace the "swiftieness" of it all.

I went to Vegas night two and then Kansas City night two. I don't think I saw any jackets because I would have freaked out. But knowing that there were so many other ones I made in the stadium is so cool! 212 was the number from this year alone for Taylor Swift. Once the Eras Tour concert started, I feel like it really took momentum.

The jacket is this cool way when you're just out in the world to find those other people. I am a longtime Swiftie. When she was 15 and I was 13, I think, she did a free show in St. Charles, Missouri, which if you're from St. Louis, that's like way out there.

I started this business about eight years ago. Our jackets run from $200 all the way up to some of the really detailed ones can get up to $2000. That's like a big chunk of our business because it's these custom projects. Most of them average around $700. I feel like, talking to other small businesses, it's a hard year. It's been a lull.

The Taylor jackets have taken us through 2023. It's been amazing. And between Barbie, Beyoncé and Taylor, like, those have been huge for my business this year. It just feels like something to celebrate that two women have completely saved our economies and saved my own individual finances. (LAUGHS) So insane.

CHAKRABARTI: Misty, I also want to dig a little deeper into some of the underlying factors that Taylor Swift and Beyoncé — who are both incredibly savvy businesswomen — that they picked up on. And first, kind of a practical one. Are we still feeling the the lingering effects of all that time during COVID and lockdowns where people weren't able to have collective experiences like this? I know it's been a little while, but is that part of what's drawing so many people to work so hard, pay so much money, go to such extents to get to these concerts?

HEGGENESS: Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think people became very exhausted from pandemic life. And there was a Bloomberg article that came out maybe about a year ago talking about Taylor Swift and just the "turbo-charged consumer" and the "experience economy," where you're really focused on, you're willing to spend money to have an experience. And I do think that there's a lot of truth to that.

Part of the reason why these concerts and these tours have been so successful is because people really missed that during the pandemic. And they missed that when we were all shut inside our homes, staring at our four walls and our family's faces. People really missed getting out and having these shared communal experiences. And the joy that comes along with that. And I think that's part of the reason why these concerts have been so successful.

CHAKRABARTI: And then there's another reason that you write about. And that's — you kind of touched on it before — but there's another pent up need, especially within, communities of color, women, all those places where those overlap. There's another sort of more core emotional or even spiritual need.

HEGGENESS: Yeah. I think — I'm an economist by training and a lot of the work that I do focuses on thinking about how people use limited resources to maximize their happiness and maximize their preferences. And I think one of the things that is going on right now is that we've got some really talented folks who have been able to tell authentic stories from their own lived experiences or the lived experiences of their family members. Beyoncé's Renaissance tour and album is about her uncle Johnny.

And I think that the fact that they're able to push through this really traditional, cisgen male, stereotypical Hollywood entertainment bubble and get these other lived, true experiences and stories out in the world has so much meaning for people who share those experiences and don't often see it in the general media.

CHAKRABARTI: Mm. And it's particularly important that these are stories told by women, just to put a fine point on it.

HEGGENESS: Yeah, 100%. So I consider myself a Swiftie, but I didn't, I'm not of her generation. And so I didn't start, I'm not, I was never familiar with her earlier music. But where she really caught me was the first time I listened to "The Man." And then I saw the video and I was just like, "Oh my God, this is an experience that I continually have in my professional life." (LAUGHS) And she's just so eloquent about it and just nails the struggle.

And I think women in particular appreciate that. They appreciate hearing things that we oftentimes internalize and that might bring us shame or that we think we're the only ones. All of a sudden, somebody is speaking about that experience and making it normative and making it — it's no longer about, it's no longer my fault or it's no longer about me or something I did. This is a structural issue. And other women are also experiencing these structural issues. And there's a lot of power in that.

CHAKRABARTI: Well, we have a little clip from an On Point listener who shared a story with us about how much the connections that people are able to make with Beyoncé and, in her case specifically, Taylor Swift's music matters personally to them. It can change lives, according to people that we've heard of.

So this is Lindsey Heard. She's from Kennebunk, Maine. And she and her 20-year-old daughter saw the Eras Tour when it stopped in Foxborough, Massachusetts, and it was a very important experience for both of them. Lindsey says she was determined to get tickets because her daughter's father died in 2020, and it was Taylor Swift's music that helped her daughter through that process.

LINDSEY HEARD: She couldn't go to therapy because the world was in lockdown. And Taylor's music was transformative. It was everything to help her ease her pain. And then Taylor surprisingly dropped Folklore and then Evermore. And those two albums are so therapeutic. And the songwriting is so beautiful. And I think they saved my daughter. I think Taylor's music, quite literally, helped my daughter process her grief.

CHAKRABARTI: I'd like to bring Shar Jossell into the conversation now. She joins us from Los Angeles, journalist and writer. Her journalism focuses on the intersections of gender, politics, race, and pop culture. Shar, welcome to the program.

SHAR JOSSELL: Thank you for having me, Meghna.

CHAKRABARTI: I would argue that it was Beyoncé who really set the standard for audience connection and creating a culture of not just fandom but real love around around an artist even before Taylor Swift did. Can you tell us a little bit about how you see Beyoncé in her own way having been a force in this new relationship between artist and fan?

JOSSELL: Well, you know, with Beyoncé, her career spans three decades. And I think that she's done a masterful job at reinventing each project — reinventing herself, rather — with each project that she releases. And by doing so, she's acquired an even larger fan base with each release. Because people are finding some type of thread or some type of connection that makes them gravitate towards the force that is Beyoncé.

CHAKRABARTI: Oh, 100%. I watched the visual album of Lemonade five times, but I think I watched Homecoming like 20 times.

JOSSELL: (LAUGHS)

CHAKRABARTI: I'm not kidding! Every time I watched it, I was just jaw-droppingly inspired and amazed and just pulled into the screen by the power and excellence of that woman. But anyway, go ahead, Shar, continue.

JOSSELL: Yeah, so I think that spanning back to even her early days with Destiny's Child and the hits that they pumped out leading up to Dangerously in Love and B-Day and Sasha Fierce. And, as you mentioned, with Homecoming and Lemonade. Each era for Beyoncé has grown even bigger. And by doing so, she has drawn more people to her. Like she, to me, covers so many different bases with her artistry and also just with her image. And how far she's willing to go.

CHAKRABARTI: Mm-hmm. I'd love to know more from both of you about this creation — I don't want to call it a culture of fandom, because it seems like something more than that. So Shar, in the case of Beyoncé, what do you think she is providing to the people who will go to any extent possible to get to one of her concerts? What's she providing for them?

JOSSELL: I think that she does a great job at providing a safe space. And I don't say that in like a cheesy way. I think that, especially in recent years, particularly for Black women and for Black people in the LGBTQ+ community, she has provided a bubble of security, a bubble of reassurance. And her music has been a roadmap in standing in and reclaiming your own power.

And so with doing that, I think that has made people just relate to her and gravitate towards her even more, especially with this Renaissance era. And like I mentioned, Beyoncé does a masterful job in being relatable, even though she feels unattainable and unrelatable in a lot of different aspects. (LAUGHS)

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS) No kidding!

JOSSELL: There's still a through line there. There's still a through line there. And I think that's what puts a battery in people's backs to travel and support. Like, I even went to London to see Renaissance last May. And then I saw it again in Los Angeles back in September. So I think that there's, like I said, a through line of like, inspiration and seeing her work ethic and how she's able to call the shots that really helps people, even if they're living vicariously, it helps people see themselves.

CHAKRABARTI: Misty, I'm going to come back to you in a second, but Shar, just to explore how Beyoncé does this, but a little differently, in terms of creating that space for fans. Because I've always understood Beyoncé to be actually more — unattainable is one way to put it, but also, I don't want to say closed, but more... she's not as open about her private life unless she wants to be and feels like she has to be, right?

It seems like a little bit different — and you can totally correct me if I'm wrong, but different — from how, Taylor Swift is just like, "Here's my whole life. I'm going to tell you about it on Instagram. I'm going to tell you about it in my songs. This, that and the other." Do you think that in terms of how they generate those spaces for their fans that they're doing it differently or not?

JOSSELL: Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And when you really zoom out, they have two totally different personal lives, right? Beyoncé has been with Jay-Z since she was 19 and then been married since she was like 28 and she's now 42. And then we've seen Taylor on the other hand, Taylor's had — we've been on Taylor's dating journey with her. (LAUGHS)

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS)

JOSSELL: So with respect to that, it makes it a bit more easier for Beyoncé to control her own narrative. And, with Jay-Z, her husband, also being a musician, I believe that's how they were able to do that whole trifecta of Lemonade, 4:44. And then, Beyoncé and Jay-Z did a joint album in summer 2018 titled Everything is Love.

And so I think that totally leans into with like, the wife and the mother of Beyoncé with her controlling her own narrative and only telling us what she wants us to know. Versus like how Taylor Swift's story has unfolded. We've been there with Taylor. I feel like I have lunch with Taylor Swift (LAUGHS) when it comes to her romantic history.

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS)

JOSSELL: Because it's we know the tea through Taylor's music and her songwriting. Yeah, that's the difference.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah. Misty, I actually, even though they're doing things quite differently, what I see is a one very strong commonality beyond their mastery of music and the business of music. And that is — I'm obviously of the generation that grew up with Beyoncé, like Shar, and not necessarily of the generation that is growing up with Taylor Swift. But the growing up with part is so critical. Because both these women, by selectively willing to share their own life experiences, as you said earlier with Taylor, that's one of the things that sort of keeps their fans coming along with them on the journey as Shar mentioned.

HEGGENESS: Yeah. And I want to come back to something that Shar said earlier about Beyoncé, which was just Beyoncé's ability to reinvent herself and to tell her story in a new way and through a new light. And this idea of reinvention, I think it's critical to the human experience, but it is particularly essential for women and that just has to do with the dynamics of the society we live in. Happy to talk more about that at the other side of the break.

Part III

CHAKRABARTI: Misty, I wanted to let you complete your thought.

HEGGENESS: Yeah so I was just talking about this idea of reinvention and the criticalness of understanding reinvention as women — and especially the lives of women outside of their homes and in their careers. It is very common for everybody, but in particular for women, that we often have to figure out ways to reinvent ourselves in order to move ourselves forward and in order to move ourselves upward in a career path.

And Beyoncé has done this. Taylor Swift has done this. Madonna has done this with her artistry. Dolly Parton has done this with her artistry. And so there's just a lot of women in the music industry who demonstrate this critical path forward, which is nonlinear and has everything to do with reinventing who you are and what you want to be in this particular instance and where you want to go.

CHAKRABARTI: Shar, I wonder what you think about that because I can also think of a potential downside to women being these masters of reinvention. Could that also be the music industry telling them they just can't be who they want for the entirety of their career. A lot of men and male bands in particular, they just are who they are for like 50 years.

JOSSELL: Yeah. I think it's a function of a little bit of the music industry telling them and society telling them, but also a function of a little bit of boredom, right? I think that women also have a bit more playground to play with when it comes to reinventing themselves and switching up sounds and looks. When I think about things like even hair and makeup, right? When you get down to like the logistics and the real gristle of it, women have a bit more rope to jump with when it comes to playing around with image and with sound, really.

And so I think that in the name of creativity, it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of wanting to switch things up naturally. And also a bit of a societal pressure to stay relevant.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. Can we just — I want to come back to the actual experience, physical and emotional experience, of being at either a Renaissance concert or an Eras Tour concert. Shar, you said you'd been to at least two Renaissance tour concerts?

JOSSELL: Yes. Yes.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. And just tell me what is that experience like?

JOSSELL: So I do want to start by saying I am going to catch Taylor's tour on streaming. I hate that I didn't get a chance to go. But Renaissance was great. I've been going to, actually Beyoncé was my very first concert back in 2001. It was Destiny's Child. And so I've been going to go see Destiny's Child and Beyoncé for decades now at this point. But it was really a religious experience as a fan.

And I thought it was fascinating how the tour overseas was totally different than the tour stateside. It's the same set list, but there was just a different energy and a different feel. And I know that, in Beyoncé's movie that she just released-- her film. She addresses, like, she had to have knee surgery and all these things that we as fans and we as the public did not know. And so I think maybe that played a factor into it being two different shows with two different energy levels. And the crowds were different.

So walking into it, I did not know what to expect because I'm not someone who does the whole spoilers thing. So I'm like dipping and dodging on social media. (LAUGHS) And I thought that it was a great experience. But, you know, Los Angeles. I went to her birthday show in Los Angeles, I should mention.

CHAKRABARTI: Ooh.

JOSSELL: It just was on a different level. And so --

CHAKRABARTI: How? How? Did you wear silver for that one?

JOSSELL: Oh, of course! Are you kidding me? Of course! (LAUGHS)

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS)

JOSSELL:  Of course! Beyoncé said — she's the mother of the house of chrome, darling! (LAUGHS)

CHAKRABARTI: (LAUGHS) Forgive me!

JOSSELL: Yes, I was in the streets, in these LA streets, swerving trying to find silver. And so I did wear silver because that's what she asked for Virgo season. And it just was a different energy. Like, I felt exhausted. I was telling friends that I felt more exhausted after the birthday show than I did with the jet lag that came from flying to London. From London back to Los Angeles. I was more exhausted.

And it was a great experience and I think that I just get joy from seeing other people. Like, the crowd is also part of the show and it's fun to watch people's reactions and seeing people who are experiencing her for the first time and things like that. Because like I said, the work ethic, the vocals the choreography, like she is just on another level. And so --

CHAKRABARTI: Let me just jump in here if I could. I'm sorry, Shar. But you've said two words which I think are at the heart of again, the fandom, the culture of fandom around these two women and how that helps translate directly into their economic impact. You said it was like a religious experience. Because I hear in the tape that we played earlier from fans from both shows. You hear in their voices a kind of ecstasy, right?

And then you said "joy" as well. And Misty, I want you to just springboard off that. Because I feel like there are not enough large-scale outlets for people anymore, as many Americans maybe stepped back from organized religion or in-person social networks were fractured by COVID. There aren't that many places anymore to go and have that experience of pure community joy. Just like Shar said, she also just felt amazing watching other people having the experience with her. Is that part of the picture here, Misty?

HEGGENESS: Yeah. I think it's totally part of the picture. When you think about how people — time is limited, nobody's going to gift you more than 24 hours in a day. And so with that time, you have to make decisions about what you want to do. And a lot of us are always looking for joy and giggles and to really enjoy the people around us. And we're willing to pay for it. I think that at the end of the day, that's the bottom line is that we're willing to pay for it. And I went to the Taylor Swift tour. I sat in an online queue for eight hours, I was part of that Ticketmaster snafu --

CHAKRABARTI: Debacle, catastrophe. Let's call it what it is.

HEGGENESS: Exactly. Yeah. My daughter and I, we got to the stadium at like 2 p.m. the minute the doors opened because we wanted to stand in line for the merch. And it was all — we stood in line for probably two hours and it was part of, you were standing in line with a whole bunch of other folks, exchanging friendship bracelets and it's the whole experience.

And we live in such a divided society right now that having, and I think people miss — people are exhausted from the division and they miss exactly what you're saying, these communal experiences and opportunities and that's what Beyoncé and Taylor Swift are giving us right now. And we are just drinking it up. Like we can't get enough of it.

CHAKRABARTI: Misty, you mentioned the merch. And Shar, you admitted that you cased all of Los Angeles to find that silver. There's also food because sales jumped at local food businesses wherever Beyoncé and Taylor Swift came to town. We reached out to a Swiftie who's also a businesswoman. Her name's Abby Meyer. She's the marketing director at the Kansas City-based Donutology.

ABBY MEYER: I was pretty confident in it. Our owner is not as dialed in with Swiftie culture as I am, there was maybe some hesitancy of "Will this resonate with customers?" And sure enough, it did.

We developed a 30 pack of Eras Tour donuts, which included five different flavors that were inspired by her lyrics and song titles: "Lavender Glaze," after the Lavender Haze song; "We Want Your Midnights" with purple icing and fondant stars; "Caramel Is a Cat." We had a caramel bismark that was shaped as a cat.

We ended up making over 20,000 donuts that weekend. We had somebody working at the fryer the entire day just pushing out mini donuts. Our 30-packs were $36.99. We had individual donuts sold as well. The 20,000 was pretty unbelievable. (LAUGHS) Just because it was more than we've ever made. About what we could make in two, three, four weeks of being open as a business just on a typical calendar month.

It was really cool to talk to people from everywhere from Florida to D.C. to Japan. This fan base is such that they're gonna they love anything Taylor-themed. And so there were fans that were getting our donuts. And then they would go to the cookie shop and get Taylor Swift cookies. And then they would go to the cake shop and get Taylor Swift cakes because it added to their experience and it added to their weekend. And just to be a part of that was super special for us. It's just been cool to be along for the ride.

CHAKRABARTI: Now, Shar — and Misty, but I'll start with you, Shar — here's the big question. I guess one of them regarding these two women. Can their success be replicated? Are there things that they're doing as not just musicians, but again, as the masters of the music business, in terms of audience cultivation, culture-building amongst fans, even venue selection, that other musicians could learn from or even emulate? Or are they just two unique people who are one-offs in American culture?

JOSSELL: I'd venture to say that in today's world that they're two one-offs. I think that people can study their moves, but I don't think that, I don't really foresee us getting titans like Taylor and Beyoncé. When I say titans, I mean women who sell out stadiums, right? I'm not talking arenas or the House of Blues or whatever. I'm talking stadiums. I don't really see that. I'm not saying it's not possible. But I'm not seeing that type of impact coming anytime soon.

And so I think that because they both put in the work and not to say, because there's tons of people who also put in the work. But as you mentioned, Meghna, they're masters of the business. I think that aspects of it can be studied, but I don't really foresee it being replicated because they all they have their individual sauce to them. So yeah. That's my answer.

CHAKRABARTI: Misty, what do you think?

HEGGENESS: I agree with Shar. But I'll just talk about the flipside of the coin, which is to say that perhaps it can be replicated under a scenario in which — again, I think what these two women have really brought to all of us is their authenticity and their willingness not only to listen to their own voice and let that lead them, but also to figure out how their own personalized voice connects with others in society and in the community. And I think that is part of the special sauce. I think oftentimes we, in our own life ventures, get veered astray — or I don't think it's very common to have an experience like Taylor Swift, where you have something you love, you're actually talented at it and you can iterate that over your lifetime. That's rare.

I do think that there are others who can do it. It's just figuring that out for yourself and figuring out where your communities lie and then investing in them. Taylor's done so much to invest in her fans, and that's one of the reasons why she's so popular.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah, I would agree with the authenticity piece of it. But I'm also hearing the voice of maybe a lot of independent musicians who say, "All I do is music that's authentic to me and communities that I come from but I'm not getting that bounce into the stratosphere or even the low-altitude bounce."

HEGGENESS: (LAUGHS) Sure. Yep.

CHAKRABARTI: Look, we're going to just acknowledge that the individual talent of Beyoncé and Taylor Swift, that's going to be nearly impossible to replicate. So it's not about that. But I'm wondering, and Shar, I'll turn back to you on this one. It's that smarts in the music business as it stands now. Like, Beyoncé says what she wants to say, right? She doesn't say what people want her to say all the time. So she's very intelligent and selective about that. That's what, I think that's one of her greatest strengths. And then the evolution that you talked about.

And Taylor Swift, she's like dropping little Easter eggs all over the place on social media all the time. And even like in Time magazine interviews! (LAUGHS) I know people are gonna comb through that Person of the Year interview and look for all of the Easter eggs. That's a kind of strategic thinking which I think they're also showing unparalleled expertise at.

JOSSELL: Yeah, I have to agree. And this is someone who watched Taylor's documentary that came out on a streaming platform a few years ago. I think that they both also have great teams around them who do their jobs and are invested and keep their finger to the pulse of culture and what people are doing and saying.

But I also think that both of these women have a tremendous amount of agency in their own lives and careers. And there is a business savvy there. And they do a good job of making things seem organic, even if they are being strategic, if you know what I'm saying.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah.

HEGGENESS: I would just also add, I agree with all of that, but I would say, there's a there's a strategy around it and there's a smarts around it, which we've already mentioned, but I really want us to recognize the bravery.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah.

HEGGENESS: Because both of these women have been so brave and bold in pushing back against a system that is telling them that they should be doing something else or behaving or feeling in a different way. And I just am really proud of their bravery, and I don't want that to sound cheesy, but I just, when I think about the implications and the ripple effects that has for women and individuals across the country, it's just profound.

CHAKRABARTI: I think that's also one of the reasons why their fans are so so connected to them. Perfect note to end on, actually. Misty Heggeness, associate professor at the University of Kansas. Her forthcoming book is Swiftynomics: Women in Today's Economy. Thank you so much for joining us.

HEGGENESS: Thank you. It'

CHAKRABARTI: And Shar Jossell, journalist and writer who focuses on the intersections of gender, politics, race, and pop culture. Such a pleasure to have you, Shar. Thank you so much.

JOSSELL:  Thank you for having me. It's fun.