Israel's decisionmakers

Israel’s military response to the Oct. 7 Hamas attack is being determined by a newly formed wartime cabinet.

The wartime cabinet is made up of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, opposition leader Benny Gantz and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

Who are its members and more importantly – what are they thinking right now?

Today, On Point: The politics and dynamics influencing Israel's top leaders and how that could shape the course of the Israel-Hamas conflict.

Ruth Margalit, a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine and New Yorker. Author of the New Yorker article "Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos."

Yosef Kuperwasser, a retired Brigadier General in the Israeli Defense Forces. Former head of the Research Division at the Israel Defense Forces’ Intelligence Corps.

Part I

MEGHNA CHAKRABARTI: On Oct. 11, 2023, just four days after the deadly Hamas attack on Israel, the Israeli government formed a special wartime cabinet. This cabinet is overseeing Israel's military and political response in the Israel Hamas conflict. Here's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, through an English interpreter, announcing the cabinet's creation.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU (TRANSLATION): Citizens of Israel, this evening we formed a national emergency government. The people of Israel are united and today its leadership is also united. We have set aside any other consideration because the fate of our country is at stake here.

CHAKRABARTI: And here's opposition leader Benny Gantz with that same unity message.

BENNY GANTZ (TRANSLATION): Just as young men and women set off to battle from the right and from the left, religious and secular, from rural areas and from cities, thus as well, the difficult decisions in the government will be reached by people who come from different camps. Because at such a time, there is only one camp, the camp of the people of Israel.

CHAKRABARTI: Prime Minister Netanyahu repeated that unity message last week during President Joe Biden's visit to Israel.

NETANYAHU: You're meeting with our united war cabinet, united and resolved to lead Israel to victory.

CHAKRABARTI: Hamas's smashing of Israeli security and the killing of more than 1,400 Israelis, according to government officials, may have strongly united the country around Israel's retaliatory bombing of Gaza, which has thus far killed more than 5,800 Palestinians, according to the Hamas run health ministry in Gaza.

But not that long ago, the three members of the wartime cabinet were anything but united. Embattled Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu fired and then reinstated Defense Minister Yoav Gallant over his opposition to Netanyahu's plan to radically reform the Israeli judiciary. Netanyahu and his biggest political rival, opposition leader Benny Gantz, went through multiple grueling election cycles before Netanyahu's Likud party took power again.

Polls earlier this spring showed that if an election had been held this year, Gantz's National Unity Party may well have won. But of course, on Oct. 7, history turned in an instant. So today, we want to better understand Israel's key decision makers in this conflict. Who are they? Where are their motivations?

Where do those motivations lie? And how might the politics and dynamics influencing Israel's top leaders shape the course of the Israel Hamas conflict? We're joined today by Ruth Margalit. She's a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine and the New Yorker. She's written extensively about Israeli politics, and she joins us from Tel Aviv.

Ruth, welcome to On Point.

RUTH MARGALIT: Hi, thank you.

CHAKRABARTI: I wonder if you might just begin by helping me test our theory, our thesis that we're offering here, that the prior relationships between Prime Minister Netanyahu, Defense Minister Gallant, and opposition leader, the opposition leader, Benny Gantz, are they influencing the behaviors and decisions of the wartime cabinet now?

MARGALIT: Yes, it's true. And it's true that there is some rivalry there. Netanyahu and Gallant belong to the same party, the Likud party, the right-wing governing party. But as you mentioned earlier, Netanyahu had fired Gallant back in March over Gallant's public sort of opposition. It wasn't even opposition to the judicial overhaul, but Gallant made the point that this was threatening military unity, military cohesion.

And Netanyahu got very upset about this public speech that Gallant had given and fired him the very next day. And then had to awkwardly backtrack from this dismissal two weeks later, after just a wave of public protests and people standing behind Gallant and saying that this dismissal was really wrong.

So Netanyahu had to walk this back, but apparently, this bad blood between them still exists according to sources. And obviously, Benny Gantz comes from the opposition. So he comes from the centrist National Unity Party that ran against Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party.

And now they're, the three of them are locked in this cabinet together. I will say that both Gallant and Gantz have extensive defense background. They know each other very well. The two of them seem to be working well right now together. And the very fact that there are no leaks coming out of these wartime cabinet meetings, that could be seen as a good thing, right?

So there is some development going on. It's not all done for show. Apparently, things are happening there. But it's also this chaotic situation where Israel does have a security cabinet, about 10 to 15 members ministers belong to that security cabinet. And now you have this war cabinet that's overriding it.

With two cabinets happening at the same time, and these ministers who don't belong to the wartime cabinet, itching to know what's happening there and trying to get their say. It's all very, there's a sense of chaos for sure. Yes.

CHAKRABARTI: So can you help us understand a little better then, what are the perimeters of power or decision-making power that the wartime cabinet has and why was there the need to even form it?

Because as you said there is a established security cabinet already, right?

MARGALIT: So it was formed as a sort of compromise actually, because Gantz at first, when this war was launched Saturday, Oct. 7, Immediately, there was a call for a national unity, a unity government, and Gantz and another opposition leader, Yair Lapid, both said that they will not join a government with Netanyahu.

So long as Netanyahu had this security cabinet in which there were really extremist far ministers, including Itamar Ben-Gvir, Bezalel Smotrich, these far-right ministers, settlers, who have no actual say in security matters, neither of them has been conscripted to the military.

They really, not only them, but there are others there whom it was seen as a kind of Netanyahu placating them by giving them seats in the security cabinet. And now suddenly Israel was faced with this major war. And there was a sense that the security cabinet was not at all prepared to face this challenge.

CHAKRABARTI: Can I just jump in there, Ruth, for one second to clarify some names that you just put out there. So Smotrich is the finance minister, correct?

MARGALIT: That's right. He's the finance minister. And he's also part of the defense ministry in some sort of strange arrangement. But yes, he's the finance minister.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay, we will talk about him in more detail a little bit later. And Itamar Ben-Gvir is the security minister, correct?

MARGALIT: The national security minister. That's right. Yes.

CHAKRABARTI: And he is not in this wartime cabinet.

MARGALIT: That's exactly right. And that was a specific requirement by Gantz. So Gantz and Lapid made this condition that they will not enter a government with Netanyahu so long as these extremist ministers were in power.

And Netanyahu refused. He didn't want to. He didn't want to fire them because he knew that way, he would lose his majority in government as soon as this war is over. So he refused and there were a few days where Israel was at this sort of deadlock, and we didn't know where it was going.

And then finally Gantz relented by proposing this compromise in which they will establish this wartime cabinet. In which only Netanyahu, Gallant, and he himself, Benny Gantz, will take part. And this will override all of the security cabinet decisions. And that was seen as a way to handle that situation of these extremist ministers.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. So again, we will speak in detail about Smotrich and Ben-Gvir a little bit later in the show, because Ruth, your New Yorker article about Itamar Ben-Gvir was spectacular in its depth in helping us understand how far right these two ministers particularly are. But again, just to understand how unusual this situation is in Israel right now, would it be fair to say, if we had an American metaphor, that if the U.S. had been attacked, that not only the Secretary of Treasury, but the Secretary of Homeland Security, not being on a wartime cabinet seems very out of the ordinary.

CHAKRABARTI: That's exactly right.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay.

MARGALIT: But I think, yeah, but partly it's because the very fact that Itamar Ben Gvir holds this position is quite unprecedented.

A man with no security background, who has a background of inciting violence, terrorism, the very fact that someone like him holds this portfolio is in itself a unique position. So it sounds though that by virtue of Gantz pushing for this, the makeup of the wartime cabinet is more centrist than Netanyahu's non-wartime government, until Oct. 7.

MARGALIT: That's exactly right. Yes, the wartime cabinet is seen as this sort of centrist force. Even though, if you see the statements coming out, of Gallant and Gantz, they're very combative, very militant, but that's the mindset in Israel these days. You have these kinds of bombastic statements coming out, but still, if you look at the personalities forming this cabinet, they're quite to the center compared to Netanyahu's really right wing and far right government.

CHAKRABARTI: Given your understanding of Israeli politics and these particular people, and of course, the situation Israel finds itself in now, the critical emergency situation, does it make you think that this sort of centrist wartime cabinet would make, is going to make a different set of decisions than a different kind of security cabinet would.

MARGALIT: I think just the very fact that we're now more than two weeks into this war and you have the IDF, Israel's military forces standing prepared to go into Gaza, you have a situation where you have tanks literally on the fence prepared to go into this ground incursion and yet they're waiting. And the very fact that they're waiting is seen as under the influence of this war cabinet and this idea that they should wait, and they should be hesitant and know all of the scenarios before going in, that seems to point at its influence.

Part II

CHAKRABARTI: Now, Ruth, I want to take a few minutes to talk about each of the three men individually, learn a bit more about them and what's at stake for them as leaders in this wartime cabinet.

So first of all, let's discuss more about opposition leader Benny Gantz. He's the head of Israel's National Unity Party and of course has gone through multiple election cycles against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud. Now Gantz does not, or rarely, sees eye to eye with Netanyahu. Now being, of course, an exception with the call for unity.

So here's a moment from Gantz back in June of 2021. He gave an interview to VICE News, and he talked about Netanyahu being ousted from office back then before getting reelected, before Netanyahu was reelected in 2022.

INTERVIEWER: There will likely be a coalition government which is going to be formed, which will oust Benjamin Netanyahu. As his longtime rival, how do you feel about that?

GANTZ: I feel that it's good for Israel that we are it's a new start for us. We should say, "Thank you Benjamin Netanyahu We are taking it from here." He did a lot for the state of Israel, and I don't forget that. But it's about time that we will have a new prime minister, a new government that will concentrate in solving the problems of the country, and not just concentrate on its political survivability, which was the case of Benjamin Netanyahu.

CHAKRABARTI: Again, that's National Unity Party leader Benny Gantz in a VICE News interview back in June of 2021. So Ruth, can you tell us a little bit more about Gantz and what he brings to the table, beyond his military experience, as you said, to the wartime cabinet and, what could be at stake for him and his national unity party, as well.

MARGALIT: So the military background is extensive, as you mentioned, and that's really his sort of calling card. But as you heard in that clip, and that's the way he talks, he belongs to the opposition, to the National Unity Party, but he speaks in very sort of peaceful tones. He rarely attacks Netanyahu, personally. That really is the job of Yair Lapid, another opposition leader who's much more kind of belligerent towards Netanyahu.

And his attempts over the past year to overhaul the judiciary, all these domestic issues that Israel has faced. Gantz is seen as a tempering force and apparently, from people who know him, it's not just a sort of shtick for kind of PR purposes or to get more votes.

That's really his personality. That's really his governing style. And so even you saw it just now, by the very fact that he agreed to enter this wartime cabinet without Netanyahu dismissing these extremist ministers.

He basically caved and said that he would do this for the good of the country, even though polls have showed him leading substantially over Netanyahu and showing that if elections were held today, 48% prefer Gantz, only 28% say they prefer Netanyahu. So that's quite a gap. And still he decided to enter this cabinet and sources who know him, opposition figures, other opposition figures, people are quite frustrated by that.

They say that this was a chance to present Israelis with a viable alternative to Netanyahu and perhaps at the end of this war, oust him and this government. And the fact that Gantz gave him this ladder, right? The fact that he entered this government made it seem as though it's more peaceful, more centrist.

People are unhappy with that. Many of Gantz's own party leaders are unhappy with that, and still he decided to do that. So there is this sense of the good of the country, at least, that seems to apply to him.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah, because of course we can't read his mind directly, but one does wonder if he felt that the choice was either be part of this unity wartime cabinet, or take the risk of Netanyahu and his far security cabinet making decisions that Gantz could believe, may have well believed, would lead to Israel harming itself even more.

MARGALIT: Right. That seems to be the alternative.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit of prior to October 7th, what was Gantz's view about the Palestinian question, if I can put it that way?

MARGALIT: What's interesting, in Israel in recent years, after this long rule of Netanyahu, he's been 16 years. He's the prime minister here, and there is a sense that the Palestinian question, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, that's really been sidelined, and that has been intentional on the part of Netanyahu. He has started these normalization deals with other Gulf states, Arab states in the region, where the Palestinian question rarely featured.

And in fact, now, what people point to is the fact that he has managed to weaken the Palestinian Authority precisely by bolstering Hamas and by distinguishing between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, weakening the Palestinian Authority in order not to enter these peace negotiations with it, not to have to concede land.

And by virtue of doing that, it really strengthened Hamas. And money from Qatar kept pouring into Hamas in Gaza. This was unimpeded by Netanyahu. And we're seeing the consequences of that now.

CHAKRABARTI: Yeah. Can I just ask, so for clarity, Benny Gantz and the national unity party, do they support what Netanyahu has enabled, the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, for example?

MARGALIT: So they speak about a two-state solution. They speak in more dovish terms than Netanyahu and the Likud party. And also, they don't want to see the settlements expanded.

But they don't, you rarely hear Gantz making practical points about reentering negotiations with the Palestinians, or dismantling some of those Jewish settlements in the West Bank. There is a sense that the status quo is here to stay and that he would like not to, Netanyahu is going further and talking about annexing the West Bank.

Gantz doesn't talk in those terms. But he's quite careful, this isn't a left-wing party by any means. It's very much to the center and there's a sense that's where most Israelis now stand.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. But of course, the status quo was destroyed on Oct. 7, at least for the foreseeable future.

MARGALIT: That's right.

CHAKRABARTI: And so as Netanyahu has very publicly said, the goal of Israel now is to completely eradicate Hamas, which is a somewhat difficult goal, to put into concrete terms, what does that actually look like? What do you think the National Unity Party and Gantz in particular, how would they interpret what that goal is?

MARGALIT: So actually, this war cabinet has been quite united in speaking precisely about that, about the need to eradicate Hamas. And when you try to understand what this means in practical terms, it seems as though they mean getting rid of the top Hamas leaders. So actually taking them out individually and it's unclear what the number would be.

It could be five Hamas leaders, 10 Hamas leaders. There are talks about them, sort of Israel chasing down some of the leadership in Qatar, in Doha, and perhaps, getting them there. There's a sense that Israel is trying to target all of them while also taking out all of Hamas's military capabilities, which means rocket launchers, these underground tunnels.

In order to do all of that, it's quite clear that there will come a point where Israel will invade Gaza. There will be this ground incursion happening soon, but it's unclear when. And actually, the figure out of the three in this cabinet, who seems to take his time most about enduring Gaza is Netanyahu himself, who apparently is very hesitant and has taken kind of Biden's view so far that Israel should wait and perhaps enter negotiations over the fate of its hostages.

There are over 200 Israeli hostages being held in Gaza by Hamas. So these are very delicate maneuvers. But 80, sorry, two thirds of Israelis do say that they want to see Israel invade Gaza. There's a sense of vengeance that's very strong on the Israeli street. And it's hard to ignore. And it comes from all political persuasions. And Gantz speaking in similar terms. Of course --

CHAKRABARTI: Could I just, I'm so sorry to interrupt. I just want to go ahead, add here, that of course, while the ground incursion has not begun yet, waiting still includes the bombardment of Gaza, right? So that is still happening.

And bringing quite a bit of devastation to Gaza. Can we just shift to a moment to talking more about Gallant the defense minister, because as you had said earlier, he had shown his willingness to criticize Netanyahu earlier this year about the potential judicial overhaul and the effect that would have on the Israeli military.

So he has been open in offering a different point of view than the Prime Minister's before. But I want to also point out that Defense Minister Gallant also this month, after Hamas's attack said, about Hamas and the Palestinians that they're quote, "Dealing with human animals there."

So let's listen to a little bit of the speech that Gallant gave back on March 25, 2023. That moment, he was criticizing Prime Minister Netanyahu and then thereafter was fired.

GALLANT (TRANSLATION): The events that are occurring in the Israeli society are not skipping the Israeli army. We hear voices of frustration of pain, of anger, and scope and scale I've never witnessed before.

I see how these tools over strength is diminishing. As the defense minister of the state of Israel, I'm saying clearly the friction Israeli society is infiltrating, the IDF and the security establishment. This is an imminent threat to the security of the state. To this, I will not be a partner.

CHAKRABARTI: So Ruth, the fact that all this happened in March and April and then come October, Hamas does this massive attack on Israel.

How much, how unsettled was the Israeli military prior to October?

MARGALIT: The Israeli military was unsettled, as was all of Israeli society. There was a sense that this judicial overhaul was really undoing Israel from within. But also, if you spoke to military leaders, and now what you see, the military reservists, even though those who had signed a letter saying that they will not show up for duty if the judicial overhaul continued, and it did continue.

And yet all of those reservists are now showing up for duty. You do see that at a time of war, the military is united. I don't think that the current, the current situation is the fault of sort of military disunity. It really seems to be guided by misguided government policies in recent months.

Netanyahu's government has diverted battalions away from protecting these southern communities on the Gaza border and sending them to the West Bank to protect Jewish settlers there. There's a sense of a kind of shifting of priorities. And this idea of bolstering Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian authority is part of this sort of misguided policy that kind of contributed to the current crisis.

CHAKRABARTI: Okay. So then, about Gallant's view of Palestinians as well, I quoted that very strong language, to say the least, that he had used earlier this month. What do we understand about his view of Gaza and the West Bank in general?

MARGALIT: Yeah, it's very, it's fascinating here in Israel, he's seen as a kind of tempering force, more centrist, but of course the language is very militant, combative. There's a sense now that really in Israel, there is this wish to see Hamas gone. And of course, that wish is really, it's, what does it even mean in practice?

You have 2 million civilians in Gaza being asked to flee their homes. They have nowhere to flee. Egypt isn't opening its border. They're being sent from the north, to the south when Israel is bombarding, many of them can't leave their homes. Gaza is locked in this terrible humanitarian crisis.

While Israel is trying to wipe out Hamas and Hamas is embedded within the kind of civilian population there. So the situation is really, it's hard to know how this will continue and what the level of devastation will look like going forward.

At the very least, this war cabinet and the fact that there are these more centrist figures forming it, it was able to detach Gaza and Israel's front in the south in Gaza from the northern front there. In Israel, there isn't this sense that Israel is now facing a regional war, which could very well have happened very quickly if Lebanon had entered the war and by proxy, then Iran, this is so far not happening.

Israel is trying to pinpoint just Hamas and be very precise about its dealings in Gaza. And yet you can see a situation in which Lebanon in the region will enter at some point.

Part III

CHAKRABARTI: Ruth, just quickly I wanted to understand, given the fact that Netanyahu fired Defense Minister Yoav Gallant earlier this year and then reinstated him a month later, how would you describe the trust level that Gallant has with Netanyahu and whether or not that's important in the decision making of the cabinet right now?

It seems to be very important, and the trust level according to sources who know both men, isn't good. And you have, in fact, there are these leaks about, that Gallant asking for meetings with Netanyahu, personal meetings and Netanyahu kind of rebuffing him. There was an attempt by one of Gallant's advisors to go over personally to Netanyahu's bureau and ask for a meeting, ask to be heard.

And also, not being able to see the prime minister. There is still apparently bad blood there, but that also made both men and the IDF chief of staff release a kind of three-way statement this week announcing that there was mutual trust. There was mutual understanding and cooperation that they were working very well together.

And the very fact that they felt as though they had to release this statement, tells you something about both the level of what I would say is distrust between the lines and also the kind of the leaks that are coming out from both sides, both from Netanyahu and Gallant as to the level of sort of animosity between them.

That's all, by all accounts, they are working together. This cabinet is convening every 48 hours, which is really, that's a lot, the pace of it is quite expedited and seems to be intense. But still, they're rivals, they're not friends.

And the fact of this dismissal kind of hangs in the air. And also, this expectation from Israelis and from Netanyahu's own government and the opposition to see him, Netanyahu, takes some sort of responsibility over what has happened in Israel since the Hamas attack. And he has done none of that.

He has not taken responsibility so far. Gallant has other, the IDF chief of staff has, Netanyahu really refuses to do that. And there's a sense of kind of frustration on the part of people surrounding him saying that he's more invested in sort of personal survival. That he is in the way this score is being conducted.

Okay, so that leads us then we need to talk about at least two of the other names, but we'll focus on these two that you mentioned earlier, Ruth. And that is finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and the national Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.

Now, just to put the recent history of the Israeli government in a quick nutshell, in order to secure power, Netanyahu had to make compromises with these very far right political figures.

And subsequently, we've been told that the Netanyahu government right now is the most far right government Israel has seen. Some of those compromises that he made, Ruth, as far as I understand, for example, with Smotrich, is that there has been the creation of a new Israeli settler agency that he is leading and that gives him a great deal of control over the West Bank, and Smotrich has very much accelerated settler activity and settlement building there, as well.

He's in the past made it clear what he thinks of the Palestinian people. For example, here's a moment from a speech he gave in March of 2023.

(SPEECH PLAYS)

So he's saying there, "The Palestinian people are an invention from the past century. There is no such thing as Palestinians because there is no such thing as the Palestinian people."

Ruth, what influence does the finance minister have right now?

MARGALIT: We've, Israel has never had these polarizing extremist figures in its very government before.

This is the first time that such far right leaders have been able to join a government and to hold such key positions. As you mentioned, Smotrich is the finance minister. He also holds these extensive capabilities in the defense ministry, including this West Bank, this sort of controlling what's happening in the West Bank and budgets that are being funneled to fund Jewish settlements there.

Itamar Ben-Gvir as the national security minister, this was seen back in January when Netanyahu formed his government as extremely controversial. And yet Netanyahu needed them in order to lock in his 60 plus seats majority in Parliament, which is needed in order to form a government. And he decided to join forces with them, not only join forces with them, but he actually orchestrated the alliance of these two, what used to be very fringe parties, one headed by Smotrich, the other by Ben-Gvir.

He last year orchestrated a joint party that would run together as a joint list, and it did very well in the latest election. It became Israel's third largest party. And so he, while now he's trying to say that he had, that he had nothing to do with it and that he was forced into bringing them into his coalition, in effect, he was the one to make it happen and to make them as strong as they have become.

And what you see now is that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, they're being sidelined by this war cabinet, and yet Smotrich is still the finance minister, and there's this expectation that he would funnel all of Israel's whatever is needed into wartime management. And that every discretionary funding, everything that's outside of wartime operations, should, all that money should seize and not be moved around.

And yet you see him still shifting funds and giving what was agreed on under the coalition agreements between the different parties. That is still happening. The ultra-Orthodox are getting money for their separate education system.

The Jewish settlers are still getting money. To fund their own protection and their own settlements. So those coalition budgets are still being moved around and once they do, there's no, you can't, according to Israeli law, you can't then move them back into funding the war.

CHAKRABARTI: I see.

MARGALIT: So once these budgets are gone, they're gone and there's a sense of frustration that he's acting as though this war isn't happening, basically.

CHAKRABARTI: Oh, okay. One more thing about Itamar Ben-Gvir, because again folks, I encourage you to go to our website.

We have a link to Ruth's reporting on Itamar Ben-Gvir in her New Yorker article titled "Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's Minister of Chaos." It's excellent. But I just wanted to play a little moment of Ben-Gvir speaking. This is just from August, and he's been very open, very transparent about his view of the of the Palestinian people.

And here's what he said.

(SPEECH PLAYS)

And he's saying there, "The right of me, my wife, and my kids to travel around the West Bank is more important than that of the Arabs. Sorry, Muhammad, but that's the reality."

End quote. Ruth, he's incredibly far right, Ben-Gvir is, and I'm just seeing right now I think a day or two days ago, in the Times of Israel, there was an article saying that Ben-Gvir is demanding that Netanyahu add another minister to the war cabinet because he's been accusing Netanyahu and the other members of the cabinet as having mishandled the security situation that led to Hamas' attack.

So do folks like Ben-Gvir see this as an opportunity to really advance their goals for Gaza and the West Bank, which are pretty much Israel's total, they would seek Israel's total control over those areas.

MARGALIT: Yeah. And in fact, members of their own party, this far right party, openly speak about wanting Israeli children to be able to walk down Gaza streets.

They're acting as though Israel should reoccupy Gaza, not only invade for sort of military purposes, but actually settle in Gaza, which Israel, since 2005, has pulled out of Gaza. And this idea that it would now reoccupy it as this, pushing in these kinds of ideological lines, in addition to the war.

That really shows you his extremist views and his whole party's extremist views. But he's, Ben-Gvir is in this strange, awkward position where he has no security background himself. In fact, the military refused to conscript him, so he never even served in the army because of his agitations and provocations in the past.

And now he's trying to find his footing as this kind of far but also very sort of security minded person. And he doesn't really know how to do that. He's not a former general as these wartime cabinet members are. So he has taken up this agenda of providing Israelis with assault rifles.

That's been his stance recently. He wants tens of thousands of assault rifles into civilian Israelis, Jewish settlers. You can just imagine the chaos that would lead to, but so he's trying to take up these kinds of populist ideas and run with them in order not to lose his electorate.

But I will say that something at least that's more heartening these days is that you see that he and Smotrich do seem to be losing ground with Israelis. There is a sense that these extremist views are perhaps, even for just for the time being, they're not going as, they're not rallying Israelis as much as they did in the past two years.

CHAKRABARTI: Huh. Okay. That's fascinating. That leads us to my final question for you, Ruth, because the war cabinet is making decisions, of course, now. But then it's also, I presume, if not the war cabinet, then the cabinet in general is going to have to make decisions about what to do later, as well.

We spoke with Yosef Kuperwasser. He's a retired Brigadier General in the Israeli Defense Forces and also former head of the Research Division at the IDF's Intelligence Corps. We talked with him a little bit earlier this week about Israeli leadership in charge of overseeing the conflict. And he said, yes, they are all united.

YOSEF KUPERWASSER: We have to eradicate Hamas from Gaza. We have to eliminate it. Make sure that Hamas threats from Gaza will disappear, even though they may have different opinions from time to time about how exactly to achieve this goal. And there's always this question of since we didn't have intention to eradicate Hamas in the coming future, before this happened.

So they have to think of new ideas and show creativity and commitment.

CHAKRABARTI: So while he says they may be all united, right now, under the war cabinet, he also said there is another set of big decisions coming, not just for Netanyahu and his political future, but the fact that's bound up with what will happen with Gaza after, if, and when the wartime conflict ends.

KUPERWASSER: I will say in here in Israel when I'm speaking about it, that it reminds me the message by Petraeus to General Wallace after he won the war in Fallujah. And he said to him, he reported to him, he said, "I have good news and bad news." He asked, "What are the good news?" And he said, "We own Fallujah."

They said, then, "So what are the bad news?" He said, "We own Fallujah."

CHAKRABARTI: Ruth, we've just about, we've only got about a minute and a half left. What do you think the previous political tensions between the men we've been talking about, what impact might it have on what happens after, if and when the bombing ever stops?

MARGALIT: I actually don't think it will affect the consequences of the war so much as it will the day after. And whether Netanyahu's government will fall and will be overthrown, whether there will be another election, whether Gantz will take him on head-to-head, the political ramifications will be fascinating because of these rivalries.

But I actually do agree that I think they're all united right now in defeating Hamas, whatever sort of, however vaguely that is taken to mean.

CHAKRABARTI: But the political ramifications for Netanyahu specifically must have some kind of impact right now with what he wants the war cabinet to decide.

MARGALIT: That's right. And he's also, we know that he's looking at the personal, he has his spokespeople sitting in on some of these meeting of the security cabinet. There are some sort of personal considerations involved. And yeah, it remains to be seen, one hopes that this isn't the only consideration and that something can come out of this.