The 'Pod Save America' guide to saving democracy

Post-presidential debate, the hosts of the 'Pod Save America' share debate analysis informed by their own White House and political campaign experience.

Plus, their guide to saving democracy ahead of the 2024 election.

Jon Favreau, co-author of “Democracy or Else: How to save America in 10 Easy Steps." Co-founded Crooked Media in 2017. Co-host of Pod Save America podcast. Served as Barack Obama’s head speechwriter from 2005-2013.

Jon Lovett, co-author of “Democracy or Else: How to save America in 10 Easy Steps." Co-founded Crooked Media in 2017. Co-host of Pod Save America podcast and host of Lovett or Leave It. Served as a speechwriter for President Obama for three years, also worked for then-Senator Hilary Clinton.

Tommy Vietor, co-author of “Democracy or Else: How to save America in 10 Easy Steps." Co-founded Crooked Media in 2017. Co-host of Pod Save America podcast and host of Pod Save the World. Worked for President Obama for nine years, including a stint as White House National Security Spokesman.

Adapted excerpt from DEMOCRACY OR ELSE: How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps by Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor with Josh Halloway. © 2024 by Crooked Media, Inc. Used with permission of the publisher Crooked Media Reads, an imprint of Zando, LLC. All rights reserved.

Part I

DEBORAH BECKER: Shaky. Halting. Disaster. Those are just some of the headlines after last night's first debate this election season between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump. Here are some excerpts.

DONALD TRUMP: He has not done a good job. He's done a poor job and inflation is killing our country. It is absolutely killing us.

JOE BIDEN: The combination of what I was left with and corporate greed is the reason why we're in this problem right now.

BECKER: Overnight flash polling from CNN found 67% of registered voters say Trump performed better in the debate compared to 33% who said Biden did. While some Democratic strategists publicly suggested that the party find a new candidate, the campaign season is long, and we know that a lot can change before November.

Today in the On Point studio, former Obama administration staffers and hosts of the wildly popular podcast Pod Save America and the co-founders of Crooked Media are with us. Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor. They also have a new book out called Democracy or Else: How to Save Democracy in 10 Easy Steps.

We'll talk about the book a little later in the show. Welcome.

EVERYONE: Thanks for having us. Yeah.

BECKER: Thanks so much for coming in. Okay. Okay. Something happened last night. What's your reaction?

JON LOVETT: Look, we have a book. It's called Democracy or Else, and I'd just say last night was a great night for or else.

BECKER: (LAUGHS)

JON LOVETT: Or else put some points up on the board, and that's gonna happen from time to time, and the question I think everybody has now is, how do we get democracy back in the lead.

BECKER: What happened? You guys have worked, as we said, in the Obama White House. We knew that President Biden was prepping for this. He was at Camp David prepping. Was he not prepped enough? What happened?

FAVREAU: Yeah, everyone has bad debates. We worked for President Obama.

I helped prep him for the first debate in 2012 against Mitt Romney, where he did quite poorly. But this was more than a bad debate. This was a, Joe Biden seemed lost. He was incoherent most of the time. He, and by the way, Donald Trump was not great. Donald Trump lied. He refused to answer questions.

And that made it all the more frustrating that Joe Biden couldn't find the opportunity to point out either that Donald Trump is a liar, convicted felon, tried to overturn the last election, would over the next four years, pass a number of policies that would really hurt people in this country, and that's what the nominee of the Democratic Party needs to do, that's what a president of the United States needs to do at a moment when democracy is under threat from an authoritarian like Donald Trump, and in no way Did Joe Biden do that last night.

And so like, I don't know what happened during prep. They prepped for a week. They were at Camp David. He had plenty of rest. They did a lot of mock debate sessions. And this is what we got, and it could be the only debate of the cycle, because, if you're Donald Trump, I don't know why you'd agree to the second debate at this point.

BECKER: What's the thinking when you're prepping for a debate? Is it you need to come across a certain way? You need to be really likable? Is it dig into the issues, but not too much? Does it depend on the candidate? Is there an overall objective that you could shed some light on for us.

JON FAVREAU: Yeah, I will say during the first debate with Obama, during debate prep in 2012, part of the challenge was, we all filled his head with too many facts, too much policy, and by the second debate, we slimmed everything down and said, okay. These are like the five moments that you need to hit during the debate, and don't leave that stage without making these points.

And we're not gonna script them out for you, so you don't have to remember a bunch of stuff. Just, you wanna make this point, that point, this point, and that's it. And that seemed to help, is to not over, cause you can be over prepared for these things. And I think a few larger directions about what's your big goal in this debate, and what are the couple big moments you want to have, is usually more helpful.

But look, Ron Klain prepped Joe Biden for this debate. He had prepped Barack Obama for his debate. He's the best debate coach in the country. Fantastic. Joe Biden has a fantastic team who was helping him prep for the debate. So I don't think it was a debate problem. I think it was a Joe Biden problem.

BECKER: If we talk about issues that the candidates appeared to want to focus on, right? We have a couple of clips from the debate that I'd like to play. One of them is Trump who kept bringing everything back to immigration, right? Probably a clear strategy here, right? Let's listen to what happened when he was asked about his immigration policies, and he responded after President Biden.

This is Trump.

DONALD TRUMP: I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either. Look, we had the safest border in the history of our country. The border, all he had to do was leave it. All he had to do was leave it. He decided to open up our border, open up our country to people that are from prisons.

People that are from mental institutions, insane asylum, terrorists. We have the largest number of terrorists coming into our country right now. All terrorists, all over the world, not just in South America, all over the world. They come from the Middle East, everywhere, all over the world. They're pouring in.

And this guy just left it open and he didn't need legislation, because I didn't have legislation. I said, close the border. We had the safest border in history.

BECKER: And that was a former president Trump talking about immigration, clear theme of his, what's the strategy here? What are you thinking?

TOMMY VIETOR: I think Donald Trump went in with a plan, which was to pivot almost every single question he was asked to immigration. The economy was bad because of the border, crime was bad because of the border, Joe Biden had failed on the border, he was weak, he hadn't closed the border, terrorists were coming through the southern border, right?

That was the entire theme. Because he knows that's one of the areas where Joe Biden's polling is the weakest and his is the strongest, and I don't think Biden effectively counterattacked. And I think if you were Joe Biden going into this debate, you were probably thinking, we need to make the case on abortion access, we need to make the case on Donald Trump being convicted of 34 felonies, we need to make the case on the economy, and then there's a broader picture, which is to show voters that your concerns about my age are not a problem, that I look vigorous and ready to do the job. And I think just Biden didn't put points on the board on any of those issues, whereas Trump was just down low in the paint, bruising away, getting bucket after bucket throughout the debate, and it was ugly, but it was effective.

FAVREAU: Even on that, Donald Trump lied about his immigration record. Joe Biden easily could have turned to him and said, you know what, we had more apprehensions at the border over the last few years than you ever did. And there are more people coming in, and you know what? I just took an executive action on the border.

Once again, border crossings are down. But we could have had stronger legislation. We had a tough bipartisan legislation that was negotiated by one of the most conservative senators in your party. People were ready to pass it. You told them to kill the legislation because you wanted an issue for this debate.

You don't care about immigration. You care about politics. I actually care about immigration, and I want to keep families together, which is why I just passed an executive order. I just took action to make sure that undocumented spouses of American citizens who've been here for 10 years can stay in this country.

You rip families apart. You rip children from their families during your four years as president. It was like right there.

BECKER: It did seem that ... there was very much, and you could tell that in certain ways Biden was very prepared for certain topics, but they got lost. Like they got lost in the telling. What happened?

LOVETT: They came out after and said he had a cold. That maybe explains his hoarse voice. I don't know what happened. And I think we've seen Joe Biden at his best at the State of the Union, I think, generously, would say this was Joe Biden at his worst.

Someone who has, I think, been an incredibly effective president, but in this moment, showed that when what we need most from a president is to be an effective messenger, he wasn't up for doing that, as Jon pointed out, as Tommy pointed out, Trump is out there just doing his talking points on immigration, it is an issue on which he pulls much better than Joe Biden. But actually, to me, it points out the ways in which Donald Trump was even prepared for a tougher Joe Biden, because immigration is not just a strong issue on policy, it is an issue on which he can suggest Joe Biden is weak and not up for the job.

And in that moment when Trump says, I don't even understand what he said there. That Donald Trump didn't even have to work that hard to make that part of the argument against Joe Biden because Joe Biden was unfortunately, disappointingly, doing it for him.

BECKER: I want to, when we talk about the economy, which of course is an issue and is an issue for young voters, I think that we can all agree that young voters have, when you're concerned about young voters ... have real worries about the economy. And President Biden was asked about the national debt and the economy.

And there was an answer that he gave last night that's being pointed to several times today when people are talking about the debate. And we have a clip of that. Let's listen.

BIDEN: We have a thousand trillionaires in America. Billionaires in America. And what's happening? They're in a situation where they, in fact, pay 8.2% in taxes. If they just paid 24%, 25%, either one of those numbers, they'd raise $500 million, billion dollars, I should say, in a 10-year period. We'd be able to right wipe out this debt. We'd be able to help him. Make sure that all those things we need to do, child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID, excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to deal with. Look, if, we finally beat Medicare.

JAKE TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump.

TRUMP: He's right. He did beat Medicare. He beat it to death and he's destroying Medicare.

LOVETT: Hey, so are you going to play clips the whole time?

FAVREAU: Yeah, Deborah, you seem really nice, but this is painful.

LOVETT: Look, if that's what you were going to do this morning, fine. But we all saw it. Man, it is tough. Tough on the second listen.

FAVREAU: We finally beat Medicare.

VIETOR: We finally beat Medicare.

FAVREAU: It has been a democratic goal since Lyndon Johnson passed the program. And now we have.

LOVETT: people said we couldn't do it. People said we couldn't do it.

FAVREAU: They said this day would never come.

LOVETT: Look, I think, you should ask a question about it.

BECKER: You sure you want me? I will. So that moment in the debate when he's got an opportunity to address the economy, which we know is a key issue for many voters, especially young voters. I'm just wondering what you think they take from that. Is that going to turn off tons of young voters there?

And what happens?

FAVREAU: Certainly not going to turn them on.

VIETOR: I reject your premise. I think it's going to turn off all voters. That was, listen, what else can we say that was just an incoherent answer. You can't misstate facts that many times. You can't stumble over your words that many times and expect anyone to follow you or understand you.

FAVREAU: We watched the debate together here in Boston, and when that answer happened everyone, us and our staff, we all screamed at the TV.

BECKER: So that was the worst moment.

LOVETT: It's not a competition.

VIETOR: Don't blow the ending.

FAVREAU: We can rank them later if you want. Okay.

Part II

BECKER: So I'm wondering, we were talking before the break about some of the moments where you actually screamed during the debate last night. And this morning and even last night, there were calls from Democrats to maybe, so we have a new nominee. What are your thoughts about that?

VIETOR: I think it's an important conversation to have right now.

Listen, here's my basic take. If last night was the best performance we can get from Joe Biden in a debate or close to the best performance, he should not be the nominee. Period. The problem is none of us know whether that's the case or not. We're not around him every day. It's a small, close circle of advisors.

It's his family who would know that. So I think they need to have an honest conversation with him today about just how bad last night was, what the reaction was. I'm sure in a couple days there will be polling and focus group research that comes out that shows the potential electoral impact of that debate.

This is not a criticism of Joe Biden's mental fitness to do the job. He's been a great president. I'm sure he could continue to do the job as president. It's about him being a candidate campaigning for president, which requires physical vigor and stamina and being on the stump every day and communicating effectively and clearly to voters what your vision is for four more years.

And last night he failed at that.

LOVETT: Yeah, look, there have been doubts about Joe Biden's ability to carry the democratic message, take the fight to Donald Trump, less about his ability to do the job. And the question for a long time has been, given the stakes for the country, for our democracy, given the real, the threat that Donald Trump poses, what is the greater risk?

Is the greater risk to stick with Joe Biden, given that he did defeat Donald Trump, given his incredible successes as a president. There's on legislating, on executive orders. There's no place where you can point to Joe Biden's age as a factor in how he actually governed. He played his hands as well as any human being could have in that job.

And he deserves credit for that. But the question was, is Joe Biden, is the risk of sticking with Joe Biden, despite concerns of his age, greater or lesser than the risk of going with another nominee? Now, I will respect people who believe we should stick with Joe Biden. I will respect and, right now, agree with people who say it is worth the chance to seek out a new nominee.

But the only thing that I think we cannot do is silence that debate. The first step is allowing that conversation. There are two possibilities. Either Joe Biden comes to decide that for the good of the country, for the same patriotism and duty that led him to seek office, he should step aside, or he wants to fight it out and win that debate by proving he is up to the task.

Either way, If Joe Biden's the nominee, we will fight like hell for him to make sure he gets a second term. But until the convention, we're going to have a debate about who that nominee should be. And right now, I think, a lot of people, most people who saw that debate, believe the better decision would be to seek out somebody else.

BECKER: Seems like this would be really unprecedented and is even possible. How would that even work?

FAVREAU: So unless Joe Biden decides himself that he's stepping aside, I don't think it is possible. There are, the delegates are pledged, they're not bound. So you could have a fight, but then it gets to be really tricky if Joe Biden decides he's going to go on.

And then also someone would have to challenge him, right? So I think Joe, the first step is Joe Biden would have to make the decision that he's stepping aside. And like the guy said, I think that's a decision that's made by him. His wife, his family, a very close circle of advisors, and sure, Democrats, elected Democrats, Democratic leadership, may or may not put pressure on him publicly or privately behind the scenes. But that's advice that he'll have to take and make the decision on his own.

If he did decide to step aside, we would then have about seven, less than seven weeks until the convention where a whole bunch of people jump in the race, and then this would be decided at the Democratic convention in August in Chicago.

VIETOR: In complicating things though is the fact that the actual roll call to pick the nominee technically is August 7th, to allow Joe Biden to qualify for the Ohio ballot. So the timing is even more constrained than I think people realize.

FAVREAU: He would certainly have to make the decision, based on that timing, to step down before that. And then, if he did, they could just continue on to the convention.

BECKER: I mean what's the likelihood of that even happening?

All of you seem to agree here that he probably shouldn't be the nominee based on his performance last night. That's remarkable, right? I find it remarkable sitting here looking at you. I mean what's the likelihood of that happening, do you think?

LOVETT: I would say, I think one of the lessons of politics over the last decade has been, I think when we're trying to predict, talk about likelihood, talk about odds, we're probably not doing what we should be doing, right? What we really should be doing is talking about stakes and talking about what we believe should happen. And I just, the messiness, the unknowns, the concerns, the sense of dread people have, regardless of Joe Biden's performance on that debate, I think, leads people to want answers.

This debate was last night. We all saw it. I think we were all pretty gobsmacked by it. I think a lot of people who are engaged with politics and want what's best for the country are trying to think through what to do. And I think we just have to be comfortable with the unknown and the uncertainty we have right now, while just being honest about what we saw and being open and generous about this conversation.

And I think anything beyond that, I think, is a little bit carp before the horse.

BECKER: During the debate, I was also on social media, probably all of us were, right? I was saying, was everyone reacting? What are other people saying? And there are all kinds of comments, people, I turned it off. I couldn't watch anymore.

I'm sick to my stomach. But they're both bad candidates, more or less. That's the cleaned-up version of what was on social media. If that's the main take away from all of this, that people are disgusted by the process, and find neither candidate to be all that appealing, what does that do, especially for your work as folks who are organizing people, really, to go out and be motivated about working in the political process?

FAVREAU: It makes it a lot more difficult, for sure. Look, I think that's if you believe all the polls, or if you just talk to voters, talk to people in your life, listen to voters and focus groups, which I do a lot.

That's what people thought before the debate. People are not happy with the choices. And what we've been saying to people, one of the reasons we wrote the book and what we'll continue to say no matter what happens before the convention or after the convention, is Donald Trump is a threat to democracy.

He prooved that again last night. Not just everyone's focusing on his lies. Yes, he tried to overturn the election and stay in power. And then he incited a violent insurrection in the Capitol. The man is unfit for office.

BECKER: And he was asked about that as well.

FAVREAU: And he was asked about that and he lied and it was crazy. And we have two choices here. We can either continue to fight and organize and do everything we possibly can to make sure he is not elected president again, so that he can carry out his plans to be a dictator on day one, terminate the constitution, all the things that the Biden campaign has been saying he will do, that Donald Trump has been saying he will do.

We can either do that or we can give up and let it happen. Because if we do give up, if we don't organize, if we don't fight between now and November, that's exactly what will happen.

BECKER: So then is it just an anti-Trump argument? Is that?

VIETOR: Yeah. Look, I think that the dynamic you described where people watch a debate and come away thinking politics is awful. I hate both sides. I want no part of this. I think that benefits Donald Trump because his core message is let's burn it down, like he is the anti-system guy. He's the radical change candidate and Joe Biden is the mother of all institutionalists, he's someone who believes in the role of government, believes it should help people and has been around forever. So I think the path to victory has always been, can we assemble the broadest anti-Trump coalition possible and bring people together to vote to prevent him from retaking office?

I don't think there has been a pro Biden coalition waiting to be better organized, to be totally honest with you. And so I think what we're going to continue to do is talk about the threat that Donald Trump poses to democracy, we're also going to talk about what Joe Biden has done and why, if you believe in climate change and you want to do something about it, Joe Biden is the obvious choice.

If you believe that women should make their own health care decisions, Joe Biden is the obvious choice. He's a far better platform. But I think, yeah, it's going to be a campaign that's going to be defined by negative attacks and negative polarization and people coming together to manage the threat from Trump.

BECKER: I just wonder, what do we know about this broad theme of organizing, or broad theme of saving democracy as being a motivator for voters? I've read that it really isn't. That people really are more inclined to be involved, get engaged in the process, if you're talking about issues that directly affect them personally, talking about the economy, talking about health care, different things like that.

Am I going to get people to the polls by saying this is a way that we can save democracy?

LOVETT: I don't know that speaking about it in the abstract that way is effective. I think it depends on what you mean when you talk about democracy. I think one of the reasons the debate is so disappointing is because what you really want is for people to look outside of these two figures and think about the broader stakes in the election for democracy, for basic human rights, for climate, for the economy.

On democracy, what we have seen is that, look, Joe Biden, Joe Biden. Donald Trump was at his absolute least popular. When? When he tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act. And when he tried to overthrow the government. Is it true that democracy can feel like an abstraction to people? Yes. Is it true that for some of the least engaged people who are the most cynical about politics, they have questions about why this democracy isn't delivering for them?

Yes, absolutely. But people believe that we ought to have basic bodily autonomy. People believe the right to vote is sacrosanct. People believe in those basic values and what we have seen in the elections that took place in 2018, 2020, 2022 is that this sort of responsible pro-democracy coalition has shown up, it's shown up for big races, it's shown up for special elections, like that coalition exists and the fact that we're having a conversation about Joe Biden's fitness, instead of Donald Trump's extremism and turn against democracy is one of the most, is the biggest reason this is such a disappointment.

Because when the conversation is around those stakes, if we have the right messenger to make those stakes real for people, we will win.

BECKER: There's a clip that we have of former President Obama who sat down with you for an interview around the 15th anniversary of him winning the presidency.

This was in 2023. And Jon, you asked him about the story Democrats should be telling about democracy. And this is what he said.

BARACK OBAMA: The good news is that because we had this system of being able to persuade each other about the better angels of our nature, in fits and starts, we got better.

We got kinder. We got more tolerant. And it wasn't, it's never been perfect, and it's always been messy, but there was a pathway for us to express our best selves.

BECKER: Former President Obama talking with Jon Favreau on the 15th anniversary of him winning the presidency, quoting a little Lincoln there in his definition of the story about democracy.

And I have to say, I wonder how much do you think, first of all, respond to that now post-debate, but I also wonder how much is former President Obama involved here. Biden was obviously his vice president. What do you think is going on there in terms of former president Obama?

FAVREAU: I don't know just yet. I haven't talked to him in a little bit. We saw him with President Biden, Jimmy Kimmel in Los Angeles at a fundraiser that we all attended. And so he's obviously been helping out the campaign. I am sure he will be having conversations with Joe Biden, if not today, very soon. And I am sure, knowing him, even though I haven't spoken to him, that he is concerned about not just the debate, but what's happening right now in this election, and the point he was making there to us is what do most people in this country want right? They want to be able to raise their families.

They want to be able to afford a decent house, decent style of living. They want to feel safe in their communities. They want the rights and freedoms that they were promised by this country. And then, they want to be able to choose who represents them to fight for those things. Donald Trump doesn't want them to choose.

Donald Trump tried to throw their votes away. And if he gets back into power, he's not going to fight for those people. He's going to fight for whoever he wants to fight for. And mostly that's just himself. And I think that's how you make democracy a fight that's not just abstract or esoteric or about ideals and values.

It's about what people want. It's about us being able to decide who represents us and who's going to fight for us and whether we even get to make that decision. And one candidate wants us to be able to do that and wants to fight for it. In fact, one party does. And Donald Trump and the people who are following him in the Republican Party, the politicians that have followed him, they don't think people should.

BECKER: What's the most surprising thing that you've seen? I know it's been a very short period of time since the debate. It hasn't been 24 hours yet. And can I say you guys all look a little tired. I just want to say that.

VIETOR: Oh yeah.

LOVETT: Wow.

BECKER: Sorry.

LOVETT: You don't even, how do you know? This is the first time you've ever seen us.

BECKER: (LAUGHS) I can tell. I'm a mom. Okay. No, seriously. What's been, as you're still processing all of this, I'm wondering what's the most surprising thing post-debate here or even during the debate, that is had a fact that you think will continue to have an effect going forward.

FAVREAU: I will say that maybe I shouldn't have been, but I am still surprised by how many Democrats are publicly still acting like it was fine. And Joe Biden's going to be the nominee. Everyone else shut up. That kind of thing. I understand why senior Democrats, elected officials are not just going to be out there right after the debate and the day after saying yeah, Joe Biden should step aside.

There's no need to have those conversations, in public at first. They should privately be talking to each other and to Joe Biden, but there are a lot of Democrats I'm seeing on social media, on cable, elsewhere, who are just trying to tell people that what they saw with their own eyes didn't actually happen.

And I don't think that's just wrong, I think it's ineffective. I think it makes you less credible and less trusted. And I just don't think that spin is like where we need to be right now, because I think the stakes in the election are way too high for that.

BECKER: Were they really talking about their golf games?

VIETOR: That was wild. I'm surprised they went to Waffle House after. Biden looked like he needed to get some sleep. And if you eat a bunch of waffles at like midnight, you're not going to sleep well.

LOVETT: It's making me hungry. It's heartburn city.

BECKER: Is that why you guys are tired?

VIETOR: I wish, God.

Part III

BECKER: So why this book?

FAVREAU: Timely, right?

BECKER: A little timely.

VIETOR: Step one, don't debate.

BECKER: (LAUGHS)

LOVETT: Yeah, so I actually, here, I'll do a great pivot to the book. Okay. We wrote the book because we knew people were going into this election frustrated, cynical, and trying to find a reason to be inspired or motivated to be involved in politics.

And I can't think of a time in which people have been less inspired and less motivated than this very moment in which we spoke, I don't know if it was on mic or not, but you said we looked tired. And I don't think that's wrong.

BECKER: (LAUGHS)

LOVETT: The point of this book is when in good times, in inspiring times, it can be fun to be part of politics.

But how do you find the motivation every day, in good times and bad? And part of it is understanding your agency. And that when the world can seem out of control, when politics feels messy and confusing and dispiriting, to remember that each of us has agency. And the more that you use that agency, the less you feel drawn into your phone and the endless news cycles, and the negativity and the divisions you see online or on television, and the more you're out there participating, the more good you can do.

But even more importantly than how righteous you'll feel making a difference, it makes you feel better, not just about democracy, but about yourself. It makes you feel good to participate. It is a virtuous circle, and we've spoken to so many smart, engaging, brilliant organizers and activists and politicians, the least annoying ones we could find, and we gathered that advice together. And tried to put together a guide for how to participate in a democracy in a way that would be fun and entertaining and useful, whether you're paying attention all the time and are freaks like us, kind of chain smoking the news, or people that maybe don't pay attention and don't even understand why they should.

BECKER: Yeah, I know, I've read in the book that you said one of the biggest divides is people who want more and more, right?

And people who want to say enough. I'm done. I can't. So how do you bridge that divide? I wonder. And how do you motivate people who may sound like, Oh, it's so different now than it is other times. And people always say that, but got overwhelming issues like climate change, huge national debt.

And we've got candidates who really, particularly one of them, is really just a convicted felon, right? How do you motivate people to get involved in that process? And with these big issues, it's so much easier to doom scroll.

FAVREAU: It is. And I think it doesn't start, certainly doesn't happen on social media.

It may not even happen on a national level. I think it starts with conversations with people that you know, with people in your community. We started Pod Save America right after Donald Trump won in 2016. And we were scared. We were feeling a little bit hopeless. Everyone we talked to was feeling scared and hopeless and confused.

And we made a decision. We can either keep watching this unfold on our screens, and freaking out about it, or we can just go do something else. We had all been in politics for many years, and we had, we were retired at that point. From politics, we thought. And maybe that would have been easier to turn away and ignore it.

But it also would have meant, we would have been giving up on the country that we believe in, and a lot of other people would probably suffer the consequences of a Donald Trump presidency and what may come after that. And so our thought was, let's start this pod, not just this podcast, but this progressive media company, Crooked Media, and this voter organization tool, Vote Save America.

Where we can not just tell people what's broken about politics, and let them just marinate on all the misery of the news, but actually give them guidance on how to participate, how to fix politics, how to get involved, and how to do it in a way that makes it feel inspiring and fun, even when there are setbacks and disappointments, like Democrats and plenty of Republicans and independents. And people who don't pay attention to politics are feeling today after that debate, because these are the times that really test you.

These are the times where you really want to dig in, but again, the choices are give up and turn away and suffer the consequences, or don't. And we have found that when you get into the fight and you stay in the fight, you meet people who think like you do, and feel like you do, and you build relationships that last beyond politics, and when you start making a little bit of difference in your neighborhood, in your community, in your state, it starts building on each other, and it becomes a virtuous cycle, and that's why we wanted to write the book, to help people get involved that way.

BECKER: Yeah, I did notice in the book that you mentioned it's not just the big national races, right? It's also local politics. … Why?

VIETOR: Because listen, the presidential campaign is incredibly important, and we hope that everyone's paying attention, and if you can chip in and donate or volunteer time that you will, but you can really make the biggest impact in smaller races, whether it's statewide or congressional race or state rep race, or running for office yourself, running for school board.

A lot of state and local races go uncontested. A lot of state and local races have no staff. I was talking to a woman at a book event yesterday who was managing a state rep race here in Massachusetts. She had 20, 10 volunteers, was basically the entire team. If you had an 11th, you're doing an enormous amount of good.

You're moving the needle a lot. If you are not seized with the desire to get involved in this presidential campaign, that's okay. But there are important and impactful races happening all around you. And your time and effort will really matter.

BECKER: What are the issues? I know we talked about this a little bit when we were talking about the debate, but what do you think are the big issues that Democrats should be focusing on?

Any thoughts?

LOVETT: I was in North Carolina doing live shows just last weekend.

BECKER: And we should say you're here in Boston for a live show.

LOVETT: Yeah, we are.

BECKER: That's why you're in studio.

LOVETT: We have two shows at the Wilbur, Pod Save America and Lovett Or Leave It, tonight.

FAVREAU: Yeah, fantastic timing, great timing.

LOVETT: Yeah, can't wait.

You know what, we're in it together. If you can't get out of it, get into it. But I was, North Carolina is a state where they have gerrymandering, they have a lopsided Republican majority on the Supreme Court, they have a supermajority in the legislature, so even though it's a closely divided state, Democrats are locked out of power even though they have the governorship, and I was canvassing with these state reps who are going door to door. And these are places where the vote was decided by 500 votes.

500 votes in one district would have been the difference between stopping an abortion ban at six weeks, or allowing this Republican majority to do what they did, which is pass an abortion law that bans abortion after six weeks. And what they were going, talking to people about was democracy. And the importance of voting rights.

They were talking to people about abortion, and reproductive freedom. And they were talking to people about education, the cost of housing and the cost of the daily necessities of life. And I saw it myself how important these things were when people were knocking on doors and talking to people directly.

And I think what's at stake in those races is the same kind of conversation that's happening all across the country.

VIETOR: That's a universal message. Those are issues that will appeal to Bill Belichick. Or his girlfriend. You get the whole range of vote.

BECKER: (LAUGHS)

VIETOR: What? What did I say?

LOVETT: What? It's a cross, he's saying it's cross generational.

CROSS TALK: I'm saying that we're an inclusive big tent dating party factory. You know a sports story is, has, if I know a sports story, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. How about Drake May? Glad we got him in. No? Can't pivot away?

LOVETT: The book is called Democracy or Else, and it's available right now in fine bookstores.

JON FAVREAU: How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps, and boy are they easy.

TOMMY VIEOTR: We should have added 11th. Yeah. Maybe.

JON FAVREAU: The sequel will have an 11.

JON LOVETT: Don't debate. If you can avoid it, skip the debate.

BECKER: (LAUGHS) You obviously all have great chemistry. You all get along so well. … Was it organic? To say, you know what, let's do a podcast. Everyone likes to hang with us.

VIETOR: Yeah, much to our wives and partners' chagrin, this is our schtick all the time. Yeah, dinner, podcast.

LOVETT: Train ride to Boston. Yeah.

FAVREAU: It was organic. We all worked in the White House together and we were all friends.

These two were roommates at some point.

VIETOR: We all lived together. We all lived together at different points. We did.

FAVREAU: Yeah, and when, after the White House a couple years, I think we had talked, first we talked about there should be a progressive media company, we've had that conversation.

And then, we were like, maybe we should do a TV show about politics, we pitched that around.

LOVETT: And Hollywood was --

FAVREAU: Decisive.

LOVETT: Lukewarm about it, at best. Yeah, they weren't in. And then we were like, having a conversation on text, and we were like, this should be a podcast.

VIETOR: Shout out to Bill Simmons for giving us a shot to do it on the Ringer Network.

JON FAVREAU: That's right. In the early days. And along with Dan Pfeiffer, our fourth co host. And all four of us if you just looked at our text, this is like the conversation we have. And I don't think we could, and this is part of our broader point about being involved in politics.

I don't, people are like, how do you stay hopeful, how do you keep doing this? And it's so tough. We do it because like we get to hang with each other. Like I get to hang out every day professionally with some of my best friends in my life, and laugh, even at the darkest moments in politics, and I would not trade that for anything.

And I think that anyone who gets involved in politics, organizing, activism, you can find friends like that will be able to sustain you through the difficult moments that come with organizing in the political realm.

LOVETT: Yeah, we were watching the debate last night, and yes, it was a harrowing two hours.

Felt like seven hours. But by the end you can only start to laugh to deal with what you're watching. And by the end of the night it's what, was this a dispiriting, awful, heartbreaking experience. Yes, but I was glad to do it with you guys. We made the best of it. And by the way, that's not obviously, like it's a nice thing, but like the reason, look, I think the right has its obvious vices and they are hate and they are fear, but the left has vices too.

I don't think they're as dangerous, but it's a lot of self-seriousness. It's a lot of sanctimony. It's a lot of proving you understand how bad the world is by never being positive. There's a sourness that sometimes creeps in on the left. and the most important. One of the most important things we can do is to be a movement people want to be a part of, because it's a good time.

Because we're the side that's having fun and is welcoming and exciting and a joy to be a part of. Not just because it'll bring more people in, but it'll keep more people in. Because if politics is a slog all the time, you won't stick with it. But if there's joy in the fight, if there's fun in the struggle, you'll stick with it longer and make more of an impact.

BECKER: So are you activists? Are you journalists?

VIETOR: A little bit of all, a little bit of everything.

BECKER: Nobody wants to answer that question.

VIETOR: I would not call myself a journalist because I have a lot of respect for the journalists I know and the work they do and how hard it is. We interview people and seek out information and talk to sources who are friends in government and try to relay facts as best we can get them, but I would describe what we do is more trying to help people understand. There's a deluge of information coming your way from all different quarters. We try to synthesize what's important and explain it to people and bring to bear our backgrounds and expertise in certain ways.

I host a show about foreign policy once a week called Pod Save the World, where we talk about the biggest issues in the world, and it's with another colleague that we worked with at the White House on the National Security Council named Ben Rhodes. I think the other thing we try to do, though, is this company was born out of the disaster in 2016.

Because all of us were getting texts the next day from our friends saying, what do we do? How do we fix this? And there was no easy answer, there was just like the daily grind of activism and citizenship and being engaged. And so what we're trying to help people understand is how, you know, what issues are important in the world. What matters to you and if you're upset about it or want to change something, what you can do about it in your own life.

FAVREAU: Yeah, I would say, I would consider us like political organizers, using media as the way to bring people together and talk to them and help inform them, but also help inspire people to get involved.

BECKER: Why do we need progressive media?

JON LOVETT: That's a good, that's a good question. I think that there is a non-partisan reporting, investigative journalism coverage, incredibly important. It is actually the lifeblood of what we do. We rely on it. We could not do what we do without the mainstream reporting that keeps us informed, that's on the trail.

With journalists that are doing the analysis, the polling and all the rest that is central. And actually, one thing is that the more likely a person is to consume it, the more engaged a person is, the more likely they're to understand the stakes of this election. But I think that there is a place for people who aren't hiding the ball in what they think or what they want to happen.

I don't think it's mainstream journalism's job to tell us what should happen. The job is to tell us what is happening. And what we felt when we started the company is there's a lot of right wing media, that is just completely honest about what they want. They are propaganda. They are honest about what their outcomes, but they're not honest about what's going on in the world.

And there are great journalists and activists and media organizations on the left, that have a very left perspective. But they weren't as focused on actually producing democratic outcomes. And so we wanted to just be honest about our partisanship, not hide the ball.

We're not going to sugarcoat it. You've been here for this conversation about this debate. We're being pretty, pretty freaking direct about how we, I almost.

BECKER: You promised me.

JON LOVETT: I promised you and I did. And I held it.

BECKER: No swearing. No dumping out. Don't you dump out.

BECKER: (LAUGHS)

VIETOR: I think we're, it's a, I think sometimes we hold journalists to an unrealistic standard, which is to have no bias in your life or brain or heart when you're thinking about an issue.

And I respect the people who do straight news and straight journalism and  just the facts type of reporting, but I think the history of this country is there’s all manner of journalism from different perspectives. And right now, if you look at the range of media that's out there from the left [to right] there is a glut, there's a massive amount of right wing content being created every day.

Like the heavy hitter in this space is Fox News, but there's upstart outlets called the Daily Wire or the Federalist or Breitbart that are basically funded by billionaires who use these media organizations as political weapons to get themselves things they want, like tax breaks or regulation cuts.

And we are a tiny little island on the left, a drop in the ocean trying to push back on those forces on the right. So we're proud of our little island place in this ecosystem.