Recess Therapy's Julian Shapiro-Barnum is skeptical of kids becoming social media stars

The point of Julian Shapiro-Barnum's Recess Therapy, a video series where he interviews kids about life's bigger questions, was never to make the kids social media superstars. But that's exactly what happened when he posted a video that went mega-viral in the summer of 2022.

Endless Thread host Ben Brock Johnson talks to Julian about making the internet a fun space for kids and adults, Julian's multi-parent upbringing, and the wisdom of children.

Show notes:

Ben: Oh man you guys. Before we get started…I just want to say. I love Endless Thread listeners so much. Because when we dig deep into tunnel content…you dig deeper. Thank you to everyone who has written us…and there have been a LOT of you… about Colin Furze…the YouTuber in the UK. Will we do an episode on Colin in the future? Maybe. But right now…we’re going to take a little tunnel...recess.

Ben: Julian, it's so nice to talk to you again.

Julian: Oh my gosh. What a pleasure to talk to you again.

Ben: Meet Julian.

Ben: How's New York?

Julian: Fantastic. Beautiful. I actually don't think I've seen the sun in four days.

Ben: Oh, man.

Julian: Right? But I don't need that actually.

Ben: You don't need the sun.

Julian: No.

Ben: Forget the sun. Who cares?

Julian: That’s not important to me. I have a, I have my sun lamp.

Ben: Oh, yeah. We need those at this time of year.

Julian: I don't actually have one of those. I just have a sunny disposition.

Ben: Julian is a comedian. But he's also...

Julian: The host and creator of the online kids show Recess Therapy.

Ben: Can you define online kids show? Like, how do you think about that?

Julian: Well, honestly, that isn't the most accurate description of it, because it is a show that features children that is honestly aimed at kind of an all ages audience. But, my show is one where I interview children. about all sorts of interesting things.

[Julian: What do you think about gas prices? 

Child: Too ‘spensive.]

But kind of the main topics that I come back to are the kinds of problems that adults, people in their early 20s are dealing with. And I ask kids about how they can solve them and what insight they have.

[Julian: Do you guys talk about your feelings ever? 

Child: Yeah, of course, cause like, it's like a friend group and we gotta like share stuff.

Child 2: And if one of them is like having a bad time, I just hug them and make them feel comfortable.]

You’re listening to Endless Thread. Coming to you from WBUR in Boston. Today’s episode. Recess Therapy.

Julien and I aren’t old friends…but we HAVE talked before…he came to WBUR’s CitySpace for a live event. There, Julian told me about how he started recess therapy during the pandemic, to counteract some of the existential dread and dismay we were all feeling. When it feels like there’s no hope…look to the group of people where hope springs eternal. Kids.

[You gotta work hard and play hard. You gotta do whatever you need to do to earn money, live your life and also chill and also have your, your things that you wanna do too.] 

If you haven’t seen Julian’s show…that’s a surprise. Recess Therapy is very popular…on Instagram…and YouTube…the videos of kids are adorable…and sometimes pretty deep. Since Julian and I last spoke…his star has risen even further. He’s worked with the likes of Maya Rudolph. Olivia Rodrigo.

[Olivia Rodrigo: Do you have any advice in like how to search for someone that you feel  that, that way about? 

Miles: Look at everybody around you. 

Julian: Okay. And then what? 

Miles: Pick a person that  looks kind.]

He's been on the red carpet of the Golden Globes.

[We're at the Golden Globes talking to anybody who will stop to talk to us. Has it been fun? Yeah!]

But I'd been wanting to talk to him again about THIS video, which was filmed in 2022. More than a year after Julian started Recess Therapy.

Ben: So I want to talk about, at least last I knew one of the most famous videos.

Julian: The corn kid?

Ben: The corn kid, corn kid. Is it called corn kid? Is that what everyone calls it? Corn kid?

Julian: He is Tariq the corn kid.

Ben: Tariq the corn kid.

Julian: I put his name in there because he's more than just the corn kid.

[Tariq: For me, I really like corn.]

Ben: And if somehow you missed the original video — you most definitely heard the song Posted to TikTok a few days later by The Gregory Brothers - the Autotune the news guys who Endless Thread covered in our meme series a few years back. They take viral videos of people and turn them into songs.

[Song: It's corn. A big lump of knobs. It has the juice.  Have you ever seen a more more beautiful thing?]

Ben: This ended up being maybe THE most viewed video on the internet that summer.

Ben: You had the hit of the summer

Julian: I had the hit of the summer.

Ben: But Julian said this video started out with a simple concept...

Julian: the funny thing was I was like going on vacation in three days and I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to talk about. So, in kind of a, you know, maybe stroke of genius or being lazy, I was asking kids what they just liked, like things they just really enjoyed. Nut I saw a little boy holding a corn on a stick, and he was just grinning, and I was like, I gotta know the story here. And then six minutes later, we had this really funny, sweet interview with him.

[Julian: Do you think everyone should be eating corn? 

Tariq: No. Not everyone has to like it to be the best. Everyone just has to try it. Have a bite!]

Ben: How involved were you with how the video was edited?

Julian: My editor, Will Halbert, he and I, like, we have a really beautiful, special relationship. We'll like hop on a call and tweak a million things and it becomes some meld of both of our creative voices, but like he had sent me like a cut of it because I was literally leaving the country. I was going on vacation. This was a very like last minute kind of one video before I got out the door. Um, and he was like, what do you think of this? And I was like, Oh, it's amazing. Just completely changed the order. Put this part here, this part here, this part here. All right, I gotta get on a plane. and he was like, got it. I'll do that. And then, I posted  it from like a Wi-Fi cafe in Madrid and like turned my phone off. The motivation behind the trip was to unplug and I did very little of that, but you know, I checked my phone a day and a half later and it really was everywhere, which was very exciting and surprising.

Ben: At the time, how many views were you getting, like, on your average video?

Julian: We were rarely getting under a million, like maybe the most we'd ever gotten was like a, I think, we had gotten something with like 20 million views once and that had blown my mind. Uh, but this was like something else. And then, um, the Gregory Brothers made the song of it.

[(song): It's corn! I can tell you all about it. I mean, look at this thing!]

Julian: Which then, created, gave the thing a whole life of its own. Because this song became the song. And then it was, it was everywhere. I mean, this video, I think, has like six billion views across videos. It's like some wild number.

Ben:  It's like the population of the Earth of views.

Julian: Truly. A little less, but almost.

Ben: But it wasn't just Julian who was all over the internet. Tariq — already known as the Corn Kid — was everywhere, too. And Julian told me that he felt responsible for that.

Julian: I remember getting on the phone with his mom for the very first time. She DM'd me and she was like, Hey, can we talk? And I was like, Yes, I also need to speak with you about this. Cause I felt like we needed to commiserate for a minute. And we were both like, yeah. So no, I, you know, I've never, uh, this is very new to both of us. I, like, I was so I was like, I don't know how to help you.

Ben: Are you okay?

Julian: ‘Cause she was like, what did you do? And I was like, I didn't do this. Like this has never happened before. I've been doing this for years.

Ben: Did she end up feeling good about it?

Julian: I think it is hard to be on the internet no matter who you are, especially, uh, a parent whose child is on the internet because the internet as beautiful as it is, is a truly awful place and people will, eventually without fail say something negative, which no parent wants their child to be exposed to. It is hard in some way to have a show that is kids on the internet, but she and I talked through it a lot. We talked about, like, how to censor comments, where we would turn off comments, like, how to include her and loop her in, and press and stuff like that. I still don't think their last name is, like, connected to any, like, they were very much, like, let's be careful with how we handle this moment. And she and I worked on that together.

Ben: Tariq has been on the Drew Barrymore show. Named South Dakota's "corn-bassador." To movie premieres and on the Broadway stage to introduce, Shucked: The Musical. He has almost a million followers on TikTok. But he hasn't forgotten the little people.

Julian: I went to his eighth birthday party. That was very sweet.

Ben: Did you really?

Julian: Yeah.

Ben: Oh my god.

Julian: He did like a food drive. We organized and put together like bags of food to redistribute to people.

Ben: The corn kid is a true gem.

Julian: He has a lovely family. He's a lovely guy. And he's more than just the corn guys. He's got depth. The kernels run deep.

Ben: Any other thoughts on just kind of internet fame for kids and parents and like families?

Julian: I'll say this. I think it's ironic that I put kids on the internet and I'm very critical of it. That's why what I do kind of works because I think I'm incredibly careful or at least I really, really try to be.

And like, I've had multiple parent phone calls in the past two weeks cause we've had two kinds of big, big clips recently, just like talking about it, talking through it. Like, if we had a video go uber viral and a parent wanted me to take it down, I would take it down without asking any questions. Like I really feel strongly about that. I've had parents say to me like, I'm thinking about starting an Instagram for my kid. And I think my response is usually like, if they are really excited about it, like 100%, as long as the passion and the interest is coming from the one who's gonna be, like, on camera. On the whole, I feel like, wait, like social media is complicated. It's hard for adults to navigate. I can't imagine trying to navigate it as a kid. I think as a rule it is good to be very cautious, just because people are the worst sometimes and you want to be careful with that.

Ben: Coming up after a break — more about Julian's own childhood with five parents in New York City

(Sponsor break)

Ben: Tell me a little bit about how you grew up.

Julian: I, you know, come from a big queer family. I have a lot of gay parents, which is really cool. And what was cool about it was I had like all these adult figures who were like down to clown and down to hang out with me and indulge me and like listen to me talk.

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Julian: And have kind of adult conversations with me, which I really try to bring the energy that my parents brought to me into these interviews.

Ben: Yeah, that seems like a clear throughline from –

Julian: Can I read you something?

Ben: Yes, I would love that.

Julian: My mom found this little thing that she wrote about me. That is so funny. It's like one sentence.

The background to this is like, I think I've always just loved talking to strangers. Like that was a really big part of my childhood. Like talking to people has just been in my nature since I was very young. But my mom wrote this about me: “I don't know what you'll do in life, but I hope you use your gift for connecting with people. It's truly unique. I compare you – I am your mother – with Bill Clinton. Yes, the president. Seems a person who really recharges from social interactions. He thrives off them and you are the same,” which –

Ben: That's like hardcore mom energy. Yes. The president.

Julian: Yes, I know. She loves me. But I think it speaks to just that I was a very, I was empowered to be a confident, talkative kid. And now I try to empower other kids to be talkative kids. And my favorite thing, and if you're listening to this and you're a parent who I've said this to, really, I mean it. I love to tell parents to put their kids in improv classes. I started doing improv in the fourth grade. I recently reconnected with my childhood improv teachers, Mike and Laura, who still teach at P.S. 321. And they changed my life forever. And I think, like, improv and indulging a child's desire to be funny publicly will only help them in the long run in terms of public speaking and, like, creativity and play. So that's a big thing I like to tell parents to do.

Ben: Can you speak more specifically about what a whole bunch of gay parents means?

Julian: I have three moms and two dads. I had two moms and they were dating. They asked my dad to be the sperm donor. He has a husband, my other dad. My moms broke up when I was two and met other partners. My mom Lauren has had like a couple partners, but my other mom has had one consistent one, my other mom Sophia. So it's five consistent parents my entire life and it's been the best thing ever. I love it

Ben: Did that ever get complicated when you were like trying to get one of 'em to say yes to something that the other one said no to.

Julian: No, it was clear who, who was who could grant permission for things, but I always joke that I've asked each parent for $20, I'd have a lot of money, but I never did that nor would they give me $20. No, it was fun. It was like weird. I like, until I was 11, I had to go between three houses in a week, which I honestly don't remember ever being stressed about, but as an adult, I'm like, that sounds awful. But I don't think as a kid, like it was all I knew. Like, you know, you, when you have a unique upbringing, it's not unique because it's your norm.

Ben: Julian’s always been proud of his queer family and his queer identity — and he has some fierce feelings about the way a lot of homophobic people accusations when it comes to queer people of not bringing positive intent to they way the interact with kids. Those accusations get leveled at queer people…and also…just generally…men.

Julian: Even in just me saying what my job is, like talking to kids, there is this like joke that is made over and over again about it, which I hate and it's uncomfortable. I think that there's this long history of kids show hosts being labeled as things that they are not, because I think it, it is like, you know, homophobia, and like, X, Y, and Z. Also, I will say, like, does come from a real place, like, men do really awful, horrible things, and like, I think people are right to be, I, I like that the pendulum is swinging in the direction of us being more careful than not careful. I think it, like, is complicated, because you lose these things, like elementary school teachers, like, not being able to be affectionate with their students, which I think is, like, like a complicated thing, but like, ultimately, like I said, I think it is better for us to be more careful than less careful around children.

In terms of the like, like, groomer homophobia discourse about this stuff, like, that's what upsets me so much. As somebody who comes from a queer family, like, grew up going to pride parades, like, this community is, it's not even worth talking about, it's nothing but like a welcoming kind of place. Children should be engaging in conversations about their gender, knowing about sexuality, because the thing is, kids are being taught what a norm is, and inherently in explaining that they're being exposed to a type of person, and a type of sexuality and gender identity. I think more information is always better. I think there's a right way to have these conversations. And, you know, these are conversations that parents or educators should be having. I've done two episodes at Pride, which, uh, are two of my favorite episodes I've ever made. Very hard to do. I did it very carefully. The parents were sitting next to us. We were really just asking kids, like, about love and, like, why kind of like baseline. Love is love vibes. Like why it's important to, um, you know, celebrate anybody being able to be with each other.

Ben: Why was it hard to do at Pride? That part confuses me. Tell, say more about that.

Julian: The backlash to those episodes was really hard to face. it was enough so that I did not do an episode on Pride this year because –

Ben: Oh my God.

Julian: Source material.So, like, if I post a video, like, people's thoughts are right there on it.

Ben: You must have to moderate stuff pretty aggressively.

Julian: Yeah and, and the stuff I was reading, I would, there was no world where I wanted the kids to read it. The first two years I like gave my friends the login to the account to help me delete block and monitor. And just this year I was like, honestly, it, it is not worth the trouble.

Ben: That seems sad to me.

Julian: Yeah. No, it's super sad. That being said, like, you know, I'm at the beginning of my career. I hope to continue this project and Search for like, giving kids a platform and talking to kids about big or complicated issues.

And social media might not always be the place that it lives, so I feel like I might wait to have those conversations. Until it's maybe in a little bit less of a social media sphere.

Ben: Yeah.

Julian: People won't be able to put their ideas right on the video.

Ben: I guess at least on YouTube you can turn off comments, right?

Julian: You can turn comments off on anything but like, You know, people share and write and like, DM and I, you know, in terms of safety, it just wasn't, it wasn't feeling right.

Ben: What does age appropriate mean to you? Or does it mean anything?

Julian: To me, to me, it's, it honestly, like, I think people, uh, decide things are not age appropriate when in a lot of instances, kids are like, already having those conversations and thoughts and like, what it does is, I think, age appropriate ends up stigmatizing in a lot of ways things that, like, should not be stigmatized. Kind of a benign example is, like, when is it appropriate to talk to kids about how bad of a state the environment is? I don't know. It's pretty bad. They're already talking about it and asking about it. to me it doesn't really feel like a right age. 'cause I feel like the second they're aware of it, like that's the age like it, you know?

But then on the other hand, I love how beholden kids are to their G, PG, PG-13 ratings. Like, kids love to not watch a PG 13 movie because they're not 13 yet. Um, I, that always comes up.

Ben: They should do more of those for other ages.

Julian: I know, I want more movie ratings. Like, I want, I want to be able to, I want to watch a PG-24 movie.

Ben: Totally.

Julian: I'm not ready for PG-25.

Ben: As I recall, you, you really, you started this essentially during the pandemic, right? And it was born a little bit out of that crisis. You're several years in now and you've sort of like, this has become your vocation. But I wonder how you think about, for lack of a better term, like, spiritual nourishment that comes from children.

Julian: Mm-hmm.

Ben: And like, what you have learned from children about, nourishing your spirit, if that's, if that makes any sense as a phrase.

Julian: No, totally.  I think I could honestly, and I was thinking about this a lot the other day, take my own advice or take the kids advice like a lot more than I do.

Ben: Hmm.

Julian: Because other people do and tell me about it and it sounds great But I talked to – I have a therapist personally and my therapist and I talk a lot about what the kids say.

Ben: Do you?

Julian: So I yeah we do well I like, I fill him in. I think he's I think he's a fan of the show or he you know, I've been I've been seeing him since before I even started the show.  But like, I try to, I try to take a step back sometimes and like, really listen to the things that I'm being told. And that's hard to do.

Ben: I feel like we spend a lot of our time thinking of children as like humans in training or like humans that need to be trained, and I think that way all the time and also like when I'm, when I'm more sort of like honest and at peace with myself,

Julian: Mm-hmm.

Ben: More often I am like, I must learn from this child.

Julian: I think that's the way

Ben: the opposite.

Julian: I really do. I really do. Like I said, uh, society is the issue. We are born kind of perfect. And I do feel that way a little bit, I do.

Ben:  Julian, thank you so much for spending some

Julian: It was such a pleasure. Thank you for, I love, I love being interviewed by you. It's so good.

Ben: Endless Thread is a production of W-B-U-R in Boston. Want early tickets to events like the one I did with Julian? Swag, bonus content? You’ll find it at wbur.org/endlessthread. This episode was produced by Grace Tatter. And hosted by me, Ben Brock Johnson. Mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski. The rest of our team is Samata Joshi, Matt Reed, Dean Russell, Amory Sivertson and Paul Vaitkus. See you next week!